More depth to cam profiling.

[greusome1]

I think the cam profiles are a tad bit too easy. I would really love to see lobe separation become available.

[Daffyflyer]

We had lift and duration before, it wasn't fun and it was just annoying to use. I think its added complexity that won't add much fun or depth

[cm_]

I disagree, I think it would add extra depth to the game. The "change the slider and it does stuff to your cam" is a bit simple even for me, and I don't know a huge amount about cars.

[ZoOmi3]

I think you should have 2 cam profiling sliders, one for duration and one for lift.

[Daffyflyer]

Thats exactly what we had, and playtested for ages, but it ended up being that 99% of the time you'd drag both sliders up the same amount anyway, it always boiled down to did you want mild or more aggressive cams. I can't really think of many reasons you'd want to change lift and duration independently

[Killrob]

Jupp, agree on this, it is very little gain for a lot of added complexity (which is borderline-insane already compared to "normal" games). We have far far more important construction sites than this atm.

[stephenl9000]

Greusome1's idea for separate lift, duration, and lobe separation does make some sense for use in naturally aspirated engine, but even more so in a turbocharged engine. For instance, a turbocharged performance engine may have a very large lift to let more air/fuel into the engine, but a shorter duration and greater lobe separation so that less of the intake air is pushed out of the exhaust valve by the boost from the turbocharger. On the other hand, a high-revving naturally aspirated economy engine might have a lower lift in order to let less air/fuel into the engine, but a longer duration that would allow it to have more power in the higher RPM ranges.

I agree that this makes camshaft selection more complicated, so having "Basic" and "Advanced" options for cam profile could be useful. "Basic" would allow you to have the 0-100 value cam profile slider for beginners and ease of use, and "Advanced" would have separate duration, lift, and lobe separation. I have found that I would, in most cases, prefer to have these settings over the single cam profile slider. It would make it easier for people who want to replicate real-world cars. Say somebody wanted to make an in-game replica of a Toyota 3S-GTE from an MR2. They could spend much time fiddling with the single slider, or they could set the duration to 256 degrees, 8.5mm lift, and a lobe separation angle of 7 Degrees, although my lobe separation source may have been unreliable (it's a forum).

[cm_]

Maybe have a button you can press to make finer adjustments and enable the two separate sliders. Maybe there can be a "lock" that is enabled by default and adjusts the two sliders together. If you untick the lock it enables them to be done separately?

[stephenl9000]

Good idea.
A lock-button for the three sliders would be a good solution.
The first slider (which would porbably be duration) could just change it's name to cam profile and the two others would be locked, like how the valve timing slider is locked when you select VVT.

[stephenl9000]

Edit:
Lobe separation is not to be confused with valve timing, which can be used as a handy tuning tool in order to increase or decrease lobe separation without changing the value on the camshaft.
On the subject of valve timing:
Valve timing should not be dictated by RPM, but by + or - # of degrees. For instance: in a DOHC engine, you could have the timing be Advanced by 0.8 degrees and the exhaust timing retart by four degrees resulting in a certain gain or loss in power.

[greusome1]

I have a suggestion. When the devs finish Automation, and are looking to expand some controls and crunch some more numbers, I found some things that camshaft lobe seperation can do for an engine. If you tighten the angles in which your lobes are seperated, you get the following effects: 1. Moves torque to lower RPM 2. Increases max torque 3. Narrower power band 4. BUILDS HIGHER CYLINDER PRESSURE 5. Increase chance of engine knock 6. Increased cranking pressure 7. Idle vacuum reduced 8. Idle quality suffers. 9. Increased piston to valve clearance. If you broaden the angles in which the camshaft lobes are seperated, you get the total opposite effects. Also by the way, I have not been able to find any information about the newest update for Automation... just got it this morning (update).

[Daffyflyer]

Sorry, we just can't go into 100% detail on everything. Sone simplification is needed otherwise it will a: end up being a dyno simulator (there are far better ones of those out there already) and b: we have to draw the line somewhere otherwise the game will never get done. (google "feature creep")

[greusome1]

engine dyno simulator? wow where is the link to that at P ?

[greusome1]

Oh.. I vote to finish the game before any other new content is added as well... I think most posts with suggestions, is just the result of playing a demo without the full story line. Im sure there will be plenty to keep us busy once we have bodies and companies to contend with....

[stephenl9000]

When I downloaded the engine designer demo I did have plans to use it as an electronic dyno (purpose built ones can set you back 300 dollars)
If you had lift and duration in the past why not add the option? It would add a new dimension for the car-crazy of us and some more depth. Maybe in an "Advanced Engine Design" DLC pack?