BRC 1955 - The Golden Age [Qualifying R5]

[Killrob]

One of the main causes for the lighter cars being overpowered probably lies in the currently faulty tire model in Automation too (tire width importance is overblown), we're completely revamping that in the next update, so the grip differences (and hence difference in Gs in cornering) should become smaller, making bodies a bit closer matched with the PtW regulations in place. This should make things more balanced in the long run, too.

[07CobaltGirl]

I think it is a bit discouraging to see all one car running in the series, so Packbat has a point, however underrated it might be for the majority of participants. It is a little condescending to say something like "just use the better body", because aesthetics matter in the trump cards! I don't think Leo was being disrespectful, but it definitely came across that way. This isn't F1. We have a budget and restrictions.

Having said that, about the only thing to make it less likely and still be fair would be a minimum weight, but given the power/weight ratio, this is redundant. I don't know what the solution is, but I will definitely still choose the American styling of cars (yes, I know it's an Aston/Ferrari-looking body, but hush because I made my attempt at Americanizing it with a big, huge, fat, grossly overpowered V8). I would love my car to be more competitive, and my next one will be (at least I really really hope it will be), but while discouraged at the complete dominance of the not-a-sprite body, there is no reason to arbitrarily penalize its use. I know my engine is a work of art. The body, isn't the original body I created for initial testing, because the save bug wouldn't let me save the car anymore. It wasn't as Corvette-like as I really wanted, but it wasn't terrible. I don't really care about the rest. And, I was (almost) a top-10 at Monza, where speed is fucking King!!

It definitely is more exciting to see different types of cars being highly competitive under different circumstances. I hope the body choice available in 1965 will allow more diversity, but from my limited testing, it appears this will not be the case. I would like to add, however, in regards to a comment made about aero, IIRC, the not-a-sprite does NOT, in fact, have the lowest aero rating. It just has an insanely low weight. The coupe body I used cannot conceivably be used in this competition at under 900 kg, while the dominant body can easily come in at around 600 kg. This also calculates into a lower production price for both the body and the engine size/power, leaving a lot of cash for improvements. There is it's primary (and only real) advantage. Power/weight ratio is not holding this car back in the slightest. I myself built one based on this using one of my obscene American V8s and still managed much better times than my coupe, but I'm one for aesthetics, and I find that body atrocious looking, personally. I want sexy, elegant cars! And, I will continue trying my absolute hardest to make a sexy, elegant car whoop the piss out of one of those little shits.

[Packbat]

No-one here is saying that the BRC 1955 was terrible and should never happen again. No-one is even saying that the BRC 1955 was devoid of variety - as Killrob points out, the top three cars all took very different strategies for speed and succeeded with them. What is being said is that the rules of the competition are not rules of nature, and it is possible for Der Bayer to change this aspect of the competition in the course of setting up the rules for the next competition.

What I am saying - and I think others will agree - is that:

• Der Bayer should notice when, under a given set of rules, a single car body overwhelmingly dominates the competition as the not-Sprite did here.
• Der Bayer should notice when, under a given set of rules, there are several car bodies that are competitive.
• If Der Bayer has a choice between a set of rules that would have a single dominant car body and a set of rules that does not, all else being equal, he should prefer the latter.
• All else is not equal. All else is never equal. If it's a matter of rules that will make for a cumbersome and unpleasant competition with many car bodies versus rules that will make for a superlative competition with just one, we can live with there being just one competitive car body. If there is no clear way to revise the rules to close the gap between different car bodies, then we can live with that, too. But given what we saw this year, it's worth considering whether a rule change is worthwhile.

That's all I have to say.

Preview-Edit: ...except that, given what Killrob is saying about the tyre model, it's probably premature to propose any specific rule-changes until we see how that affects things.

Preview-Edit #2: Good to know - I strike my suggestion of an aerodynamics-based rule. (And yes, I'm not fond of the body's aesthetics, either.)

[strop]

OK, it looks like this controversy has been resolved for the time being. It's been going on for a while, so that is good.

Now, I missed the race! Are the results out yet?

[Der Bayer]

I will not penalize or ban specific bodies, no discussion.

There is, however, a - in my eyes - very important balancing option: Fuel tank size. I have been thinking a lot what should influence fuel tank size, and body size is the most important factor for that in reality. The original Sprite had a fuel tank capacity of 27 liters (20.1 kg), which is basically nothing. With more powerful cars this won't last for long. The race format will probably be changed to a bit longer races (to make proper use of the weather and pit stop system), too. So choosing the Not-Sprite then should force you to do at least one additional pit stop.

I'll let you know how the formula I comeup with looks like. Ideas are welcome, but body dimensions minus cargo space is the rough plan I have (the 60s van does not have a big fuel tank in reality, too.

In case you have any other balancing ideas which are a) derived from real motorsport rules and b) not overcomplicating the rules for the BRC, please let me know.

Edit: In addition to that, it has been pointed out in the Beta Forums that convertibles (such as the Not-Sprite) might not receive the weight penalty they deserve, yet.

[TrackpadUser]

IIRC the only convertibles with no weight penality are those using an aluminium or carbon fiber chassis, so the sprite will probably get a fairly major weight penalty for the next BRC.

I just need to check if Andrew had the time to add it in the game, otherwise I'll have to update the one on the workshop.

[RobtheFiend]

Der Bayer, doesn't the Probot program you designed only use the front area of the car, when calculating top speed? Aerodynamic efficiency is not a factor?
If so, i think the non-Sprite is not a very sleek body, this would lower the maximum speed.

[Der Bayer]

No, of course aerodynamic efficiency is used, which is front area * drag coefficient.

[Dobble]

In case you have any other balancing ideas which are a) derived from real motorsport rules and b) not overcomplicating the rules for the BRC, please let me know.

Is it maybe time to add tire width limitations based on weight? Just like Group-A, Group-B, Etc.
Right now the rules undeniably benefit the lighter cars since the tire width is fixed but power and weight has to adapt. Inevitably giving more grip the less the car weighs.

I'm guessing any rules applying this would be pretty arbitrary but it could be something like adding another 10mm per 50 kg, with a maximum and a minimum width. This could lead to people actually adding or subtracting weight to get in to a better bracket, eventually evening out the field. I remember Group-B used a maximum width sum to be split up based on weight bias or strategy. It was something like a car with 1200kg getting 490mm to play with, giving anything from a f/r 245mmx245mm to a 185mmx305mm.

[strop]

Dobbie, probably best to see how this turns out first:

One of the main causes for the lighter cars being overpowered probably lies in the currently faulty tire model in Automation too (tire width importance is overblown), we're completely revamping that in the next update, so the grip differences (and hence difference in Gs in cornering) should become smaller, making bodies a bit closer matched with the PtW regulations in place. This should make things more balanced in the long run, too.

[NormanVauxhall]

I think that an "less than 10 years old body" could be a good way to avoid using the same car over and over again.

[RobtheFiend]

IIRC, tire grip is also a function of how much weight that is placed on the tire. That is why downforce gives the same tire more grip.
If you have a very light car, wider tires will not give that much more grip, just more rolling resistance - lowering top speed.

[Leonardo9613]

That is mostly true, however, cars also have inertia, so the tires must exert a force to the ground in order to overcome that, so in the end the effects cancel out.

[Der Bayer]

I think that an "less than 10 years old body" could be a good way to avoid using the same car over and over again.

Yes, that will be done, but I think the Non-Sprite will still be available in 1965 then. Maybe we'll go for 1966

For the fuel tank size I'd go for footprint[m²]*7 = tank size[l], this should give realistic values.

[koolkei]

I will not penalize or ban specific bodies, no discussion.

There is, however, a - in my eyes - very important balancing option: Fuel tank size. I have been thinking a lot what should influence fuel tank size, and body size is the most important factor for that in reality. The original Sprite had a fuel tank capacity of 27 liters (20.1 kg), which is basically nothing. With more powerful cars this won't last for long. The race format will probably be changed to a bit longer races (to make proper use of the weather and pit stop system), too. So choosing the Not-Sprite then should force you to do at least one additional pit stop.

I'll let you know how the formula I comeup with looks like. Ideas are welcome, but body dimensions minus cargo space is the rough plan I have (the 60s van does not have a big fuel tank in reality, too.

In case you have any other balancing ideas which are a) derived from real motorsport rules and b) not overcomplicating the rules for the BRC, please let me know.

Edit: In addition to that, it has been pointed out in the Beta Forums that convertibles (such as the Not-Sprite) might not receive the weight penalty they deserve, yet.

reading this thread for the last couple of pages...........

im surprised. i really am

nobody is making reference to the almost exact thing that happenned IRL in early 90s

as in how the Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) "Godzilla" literally dominates the racing world

i found someone in reddit explained it like this

  Code:

 There is a reason it was named "Godzilla". This is why:

In Australia/New Zealand we have the V8 supercars (similar to your NASCAR), these people are staunchly fanatic about their holdens(GM?) and fords.

Because of a rule change in the late 80's, it became possible for cars that were not V8 australian cars to enter the race.

Enter the R32 GTR Skyline. Being a four wheel drive, with a great engine and alot of power, the skyline had a significant advantage, easily outclassed the ford/holden v8's especially in the wet.

The GTR started winning victories all over the place. The GTR won the 1992 Bathurst 1000 (superbowl of V8 racing in australasia). The V8 fans lots their shit and started throwing beer cans etc at the winning drivers when they took the podium, causeing the wining driver to famously yell at the crowd "you're a pack of arseholes".

Shortly afterwards the rules were changed (unfairly in my opinion) because the fans were scared of change and unable to compete and the GTR was banned from the race. V8 fans rejoiced, GTR fans felt they were unfairly treated.

Since then the GTR has become the legend of the car that brought the V8 racing community to its knees. In addition to all the other huge victories it has achieved across the world.

There is a reason it is so great and has become the most tuned japanese car in history. At a stock 260hp at the wheel, with an upgraded exhaust, intercooler and small turn up in the boost, you can easily add another 200hp. You can get upto 600hp on stock internals which is a shit load of easily achieved horsepower. In New Zealand it is not uncommon to see 1000hp plus GTR's. There is a family in NZ who pride themselves on owning about 8 1000hp plus GTR's.

not to mention that in the last couple of years of it's glory, the cars was literally given sandbags to slow them down, and still won.

in the end, rules were made to ban some of the technology used in the godzilla in the australia

but only in australia, back in japan, it was still dominating until 1997 (although the latter part was the R-33 not the R-32)