BRC 1955 - The Golden Age [Qualifying R5]

[Packbat]

What about just using the better body? It's not like motor racing has different rules according to different car shapes.

In real-world motor racing, there's no one body that dominates the entire field so completely as the not-Sprite body does here. Part of the appeal of racing is that people take different approaches to the contest, producing vehicles with different weaknesses and strengths, and which choices were better or worse is only answered (and only in part answered, because even after the fact there's always an unknown element of luck) over the course of the actual season.

And there's a long history of race rules being put in place to promote variety in the field or prohibit design features which have an overwhelming advantage. Given how widespread the frustration is over the uniformity of vehicle appearances in the field, I think it's entirely appropriate to change the rules.

[RobtheFiend]

Maybe someone can see what the average points was for the non-Sprite cars, and then for the rest of us. Might be interesting.

[Leonardo9613]

Sincerely, I really don't see what the fuss is about. F1 cars all look the same because, when they still had some kind of freedom, it was found that that shape was the fastest way of doing a formula car. All GT3 cars look almost the same, mid-engined coupes with massive wings, with a few front-engined exceptions, but those are there because they have to be based in road cars.

My point was, it would be stupid to have a van racing, so you won't use one. If a sedan or a very big coupe isn't competitive, it isn't really an issue with the rules, but with the cars themselves. Furthermore, during the races the cars are just dots, it's not like you are actually seeing the field and having a hard time recognizing them.

[Packbat]

@Leonardo9613: I'm glad you don't have an issue with it. That doesn't change the fact that other people do. Please be respectful.

[Tycondero]

Sincerely, I really don't see what the fuss is about. F1 cars all look the same because, when they still had some kind of freedom, it was found that that shape was the fastest way of doing a formula car. All GT3 cars look almost the same, mid-engined coupes with massive wings, with a few front-engined exceptions, but those are there because they have to be based in road cars.

My point was, it would be stupid to have a van racing, so you won't use one. If a sedan or a very big coupe isn't competitive, it isn't really an issue with the rules, but with the cars themselves. Furthermore, during the races the cars are just dots, it's not like you are actually seeing the field and having a hard time recognizing them.

I agree with you here and that is not because I also used the not-sprite car body. Indeed, in formula 1 all cars look-a-like and that is also true for GT3 and also for example the LMP class, which is driven during the Le Mans 24 hours. I understand that people find it slightly unimaginative and that might be true, but nobody forced them to not chose the not-sprite body. You can all choose what you like for your car within the set rules.

Also the further we progress towards present day with these racing series the more different models are available, making it even more "difficult" to pick the best car type for the races.

[RobtheFiend]

When something is "within the rules", but clearly superior, rules have been altered. Several times in the history of racing.

[Lordred]

Sincerely, I really don't see what the fuss is about. F1 cars all look the same because, when they still had some kind of freedom, it was found that that shape was the fastest way of doing a formula car. All GT3 cars look almost the same, mid-engined coupes with massive wings, with a few front-engined exceptions, but those are there because they have to be based in road cars.

My point was, it would be stupid to have a van racing, so you won't use one. If a sedan or a very big coupe isn't competitive, it isn't really an issue with the rules, but with the cars themselves. Furthermore, during the races the cars are just dots, it's not like you are actually seeing the field and having a hard time recognizing them.

F1 ans GT3 are classes which are leaps and bounds more expensive than the class of cars in the BRC.

We are more akin to a Group F or D with the power to weight ratios used, and tire restrictions.

Those are classes with very diversified body types.

[titleguy1]

@Leonardo9613: I'm glad you don't have an issue with it. That doesn't change the fact that other people do. Please be respectful.

Sorry, but I don't see anything disrespectful with his post. He is making a point, though, with the survival of the fittest; the best car bodies always dominate the track, regardless of shape or size.

[Leonardo9613]

@Leonardo9613: I'm glad you don't have an issue with it. That doesn't change the fact that other people do. Please be respectful.

Just because I disagreed with your point while giving arguments that support mine, doesn't mean I was disrespectful

And Lordred, price doesn't really come to the point here, as automation price isn't fully balanced and the BRC does not represent any kind of real racing series, because here we have an infinite R&D budget and development time, where as the races you cited usually are based on road cars.

However, trackpaduser spent a lot of time and effort making this car just so it was capable of being used for this very challenge. Would it be fair if it was banned or deliberately having some kind of arbitrary measure that would make it worse? The thing is, I can't see what benefit would a rule change bring. If the car is lighter, more compact and more aerodynamic, it is automatically more suited to racing, and the fact that the game acknowledges that is a good thing.

[Packbat]

@Leonardo9613: I'm glad you don't have an issue with it. That doesn't change the fact that other people do. Please be respectful.

Sorry, but I don't see anything disrespectful with his post. He is making a point, though, with the survival of the fittest; the best car bodies always dominate the track, regardless of shape or size.

Comments like these:

What about just using the better body?

Sincerely, I really don't see what the fuss is about.

My point was, it would be stupid to have a van racing, so you won't use one.

...basically say, "I don't think your preferences should have weight in this discussion".

• "Just" use the better body? I don't want there to be a single unambiguously better body. Even leaving aside aesthetic considerations (I love looking at all the different car designs that people come up with during competitions, and people have a lot less room to come up with designs when there is only one competitive body), from a game design perspective a choice that boils down to "pick the obviously best one or lose" isn't a choice. And that's less fun.
• "fuss" literally means "excessive activity, worry, bother, or talk about something". Calling it "fuss" says that we care more than we should, and therefore that we should not express our preferences as we have.
• Literally no-one has proposed that a van should be competitive - calling that idea "stupid" is a complete strawman.

Like I said, I'm glad that the uniformity of the field doesn't bother Leonardo9613. I'm not asking for anyone to be bothered by it. I'm not asking anyone to shut up, either - comments like:

F1 cars all look the same because, when they still had some kind of freedom, it was found that that shape was the fastest way of doing a formula car. All GT3 cars look almost the same, mid-engined coupes with massive wings, with a few front-engined exceptions, but those are there because they have to be based in road cars. [...] If a sedan or a very big coupe isn't competitive, it isn't really an issue with the rules, but with the cars themselves. Furthermore, during the races the cars are just dots, it's not like you are actually seeing the field and having a hard time recognizing them.

...are entirely appropriate and relevant. But people who want more variety in the field are not wrong for saying so.

[Jakgoe]

Listen, Packbat, it boils down to this:

Imagine Martin runs a company that makes shoes. You make some running trainers/sneakers, you make some loafers, you make some dress shoes. Guess which ones runners are going to use...

When the man who comes to the race in dress shoes complains that his feet hurt, what does Martin do?

Do you:

A) Overhaul your company to make only running shoes.

or

B) Tell the man who complained to choose a better shoe next time.

If you chose A, I have some bad news for you.


You also are being incredibly disrespectful to Leonardo. Please stop. He's being very reasonable, you're not.

[Killrob]

Looking at the top three cars in this challenge (which I know Packbat has done more than most here), don't you think the breadth of solutions to getting into the top 3 was mighty impressive? Yes, they used the same shell, but I can't imagine the competition to be any more colorful than what we did see in this challenge which basically was limited to a single body.

No one was forced to use the less competitive car body, so comparing "average points" of various body types would give poor results making the worse cars better than the previously best car. Why? Because people who wanted their car to be competitive chose the not-Sprite, which usually also are the people who invest most time into the game or are the best at it (as a consequence of their competitive nature). Also it is a nice thing to be able to choose being the underdog in the shitty car, that has its charm! A bit like placing ahead of higher class cars in endurance races.

I see no benefit in either reducing choice or regulating more, as the latter would have problems on its own and requires a lot of effort to get right.

[Leonardo9613]

Had I not intended to write exactly what was written, I would apologize to you, Packbat. But I think you hit the nail in the head when you said that "I don't think your preferences should have weight in this discussion". That is indeed what I meant. Of course it would be nice to have all different cars to be competitive, that would be beautiful and jolly. Sadly, that's not how physics work. I'm a practical man myself and I am an engineer student, my head works in a way that I should interpret reality in such a way that I can make the best of it. Levelling cars by the lowest common denominator is a bad thing, it's pretty much the same that happens with people in schools nowadays, everyone is a unique snowflake that should be accepted and merited. That is true, but you don't judge a fish by their ability to climb a tree, do you? A racing car is light and sleek, a van is big and roomy, a sporty coupe is an elegant and classy thing. This is a race, the raciest cars should win, were this a concours of some kind, then you would have a point.

Also, I am not the only one defending the rules to continue how they are, as you can see.

[GenJeFT]

By the same logic we could ban V8s because they are unfair to I6s. I dont support that even though I submit I6 engines. These are competitive races not a beauty pageant (which is good because my car does not score any points in the looks department). If you want to see a field with a lot of different bodies and stuff we should revive the old CTC challenges which I found quite fun.

These are competitive races, as such the most competitive minded people will be using the best tools for the job in order to win, aka the non-sprite and and V8 engines. Even with the same body not every car was the same, suspensions and engines varied dramatically, nobody used the same two engines. Nobody had the same two cars.

Then there are the people who just wanted to design whatever and designed cars that were different to see how it turned out. They lost, but many still had fun anyway. A quite normal evolution that has happened in real life (after all, look at the variety in NASCAR).

One thing we could do in the future once the game is finished is set up race contests where you just take a car stock off the company lot and race that. That could be quite entertaining.

*Edit because NASCAR and Stock Car are the same thing...

[TrackpadUser]

I would also add that if we start banning specific shells because they dominate, people will find other shells that dominate.

The lack of options due to BRC still being very early in Automation's timeline as well as the rules that currently give an advantage to lighter cars just make the problem a tad worse than it was in earlier comps.