Older Engine Power Figures

[Leximu]

As of recent I've been sitting here trying to create older 1960's engines like the good old 406 cid ( 6.6L) But I've ran into a few problems, not sure if it was developer oversight, or just you know something you guys are going to work on but here is my question.

Will I be able to replicate them at least within 10% of what they should be ?
As of current I can't even get their RPM's past 5000 and that is with adding every slider high, which just leads to crazy man hour requirement... Which makes no sense since some of the older engines such as the engine in the 1962 ford galaxie which used a 406, was able to rev to 5800... but with even a DOHC ( it was a pushrod set up ) and cams set crazy, it is impossible to reach accuracy with it. So I just question will I be able to.. thank you for taking the time to read this as well guys, but anyway great work, keep it up look forward to seeing it completed !

[Daffyflyer]

What's failing when you try to make the 406? I wonder if the new valve float calculations might need some tweaking still.

[Killrob]

You are trying to replicate an American high-performance pushrod engine from the 60s. That directly tells me that you SHOULD need between +10 and +15 in top end quality and something around +5 in bottom end quality. Never assume that American pushrod tech was "the norm"... it is not! Ford and others have poured huge sums into making this very compact but inefficient design as good as it is.

The game takes this into account, so when you want to replicate Ford you will need to get to about +10 to +15 in top-end techpool, and then your costs and manhours will be kinda normal. It's supposed to be that way.

Statements like "This design prevented the main bearing caps from "walking" under extreme racing conditions." on the wiki-page lead me to believe that the game got it right. I just tried to very roughly replicate it and it worked. Please post you best try engine file here if you still don't quite make it to within a few percent!

[Der Bayer]

I tried the 426 (bore 107.5mm, stroke 96.1 mm) as I could not find good data on the 406. This is definitely a "freak engine". Top end quality +15 won't do it. This one is supposed to make 305.7 kW at 5600 RPM, top torque is 645 Nm at 3400 RPM. But like Robert said, if you want to make these extreme engines possible, it is hard to keep the average (non-american) pushrod engine as crappy as they usually are.

[Daffyflyer]

^What those guys said

[Leximu]

You are trying to replicate an American high-performance pushrod engine from the 60s. That directly tells me that you SHOULD need between +10 and +15 in top end quality and something around +5 in bottom end quality. Never assume that American pushrod tech was "the norm"... it is not! Ford and others have poured huge sums into making this very compact but inefficient design as good as it is.

The game takes this into account, so when you want to replicate Ford you will need to get to about +10 to +15 in top-end techpool, and then your costs and manhours will be kinda normal. It's supposed to be that way.

Statements like "This design prevented the main bearing caps from "walking" under extreme racing conditions." on the wiki-page lead me to believe that the game got it right. I just tried to very roughly replicate it and it worked. Please post you best try engine file here if you still don't quite make it to within a few percent!

Okay I'll attempt it with the information I gathered, in a few moments after I build it here is the page I used, please ALSO note having 11.4 compression ratio is impossible ( unless you make your fuel ratio crazy ) and it just lowers the power SOOOO much it is very hard to reach the numbers

So 30 minutes XD.

And yes I did add 15 to ALL of them + 15 so it was just frustrating not being able to reach the numbers, and made me wonder if you know you guys missed it since, yes there is a lack of information on older v8 engines.

1962 ford galaxie
http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/cla ... ie-406.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine

Both links.

[Leximu]

Guess my try today was better than yesterday, maybe it was because I was tired! Here is the engine, it is missing 50 points of horse, but I feel it is pretty good, but the cost etc, would be pretty insane for this type of build, but hey whatever
EDIT : I was able to get a few more horses out of it, but it really doesn't have the right torque etc... all well

[Killrob]

no, the cost would not be insane if you had the necessary tech-pool if you set your quality to +15 and have 12 tech pool through research, then that costs as much as setting it to +3 without tech-pool (in sandbox mode for instance).

Glad you did get closer though!

[Leximu]

no, the cost would not be insane if you had the necessary tech-pool if you set your quality to +15 and have 12 tech pool through research, then that costs as much as setting it to +3 without tech-pool (in sandbox mode for instance).

Glad you did get closer though!

Cool I guess it was my oversight cause I was tired, you'll likely tweak it more during this time... My company is going to be more or less specialized in bottom ends once the tycoon part is out.. so 406 engines isn't something I'll be building often after I get passed the 1940's and 70's time frame

[Killrob]

Here is my modification of the engine, remember that in Automation you cannot scale the carburettor size, so in some cases you need to take more of them to match the original engine. I had huge problems getting power DOWN enough. I think it's pretty close to the original, and quality settings are more reasonable too. Here it is:

405.3CI XP 16V OHV RobRev0.lua

(38.73 KiB) Downloaded 226 times

[Leximu]

Here is my modification of the engine, remember that in Automation you cannot scale the carburettor size, so in some cases you need to take more of them to match the original engine. I had huge problems getting power DOWN enough. I think it's pretty close to the original, and quality settings are more reasonable too. Here it is:

405.3CI XP 16V OHV RobRev0.lua

I upped the exhuast to 2.25'', it got the extra power it needed to be within the links I gave and was trying to build, awesome, and thank you very much! I'm glad I can replicate them I just need to do it when I'm actually more awake lol.

[Slim Jim]

You also have to keep in mind that those horsepower numbers quoted are "gross" ratings and are usually quite a bit higher than if those same engines were rated using today's horsepower standards. I'm not sure if the game takes that into account. As a rough guide, net hp = 0.8 * gross horsepower. Also, premium leaded fuel was available in the 99-102 RON (edit:correction) range back then as well.

Long story, short: When I build engines from that era, I always try to reach what I think the "net" horsepower level would have been if they used that rating. Makes life much easier.

[09webbad]

I'm pretty sure slimjim that the car designer uses the net horsepower in every year otherwise the calculations would be chaotic. Anyway, back to the original subject, your engine killrob drops power at 5400rpm... cars such as the Austin Healey 3000, the Citroen DS and the Triumph TR6 can rev more than 5400rpm and they aren't even American... the Pontiac GTO and the AC Cobra 427 could rev as much as 6000rpm with a pushrod setup. There still must be something wrong...

[Killrob]

My engine can rev to 6000 too, what's wrong?

What bore do the GTO and 427 have?

[09webbad]

No... what I'm saying is that the pushrod setup in the 60s and 70s era does not rev anywhere near 6000rpm or 5500rpm at least...
The Cobra 427 1966 has a bore x stroke of 107.7 × 96 mm
and the GTO 1965 has a bore x stroke of 103.1 × 95.25 mm i believe...

Edit: While we're on the subject on old pushrod setups, I noticed that the service costs are lower than an overhead on the V8s... to access the camshaft on an overhead you need to remove the valve covers while on a pushrod you need to remove the radiator and the intake manifold and this must cost considerably more...