Fresh ideas after the demo

[Tangelo]

Right, so I've spent some time with the demo now and I'm impressed by just how much little features you've squeezed in to the interface and the layout, done a pretty good job at that while preserving a certain style. Things I might point out though, are these:

* the bodyshell "stretching" part is a bit clumsy and hard to get a hold of at first. I got used to it somewhat but there isn't really a numerical value or a visible slider to just how much you pull one point out or push it in, and also there aren't any hotspots marked on the car about where you can grab and modify the body (you kind of have to search for those "in the dark"). And also I hope you will break the bodies up to a few more pieces that can be modified, because atm it's a bit limited (I'm sorry If I'm being harsh here, I model stuff in 3ds Max so maybe I'm a bit spoiled over the average, having gotten used to pulling out every small vertex, really sorry If I sound like a bastard here).

*when messing around in sandbox mode, I kinda acknowledged it was annoying that if I wanted to change the body, I had to take off everything (grilles, vents, lights etc) and thus basically had to start from scratch. And if you think of it, it would be logical to just save one car and an engine, then make a sporty version by just making those wheel arches a bit wider and bolting one of your spicier engines in there, changing the suspension etc without losing the basic look of your car. So you should be able to go back to your root design and modify that after you've detailed it. I kind of understand if you say that's not possible with the way the car designer works but I'm just saying it would be a sweet feature and a realistic one.

* The test track - I've got to be honest - the test track simulation where the car drives the red track map and there's lot's of data and telemetry everywhere that I couldn't comprehend in one go and the whole look of it really... It looks and feels exactly as it was copied from last century, I would be happy without that feature honestly, rather just show me the stats of acceleration and cornering, theoretical lap speed etc on a pure and simple fact sheet. It is a very good idea to have a test track feature and a pivotal part of designing a car, no doubt... but again, I'm so sorry to be grunting at your hard work but I want to be honest and there it is, I don't like it. I LOVE THE GAME but I don't like the test track as it is at the moment. I think it takes away some of the flowing nature of the gameplay and just doesn't feel as much as a part of the game as other features.

* Lastly, what I would do if this was my baby like it is yours... I would de-clutter and then add detail or vice versa, add detail and then de-clutter. The overall looks of the game is a bit noisy to me at some points, I'm getting confused on what to do next, where to look, which numbers to watch. It's good to have lot's of information and huge number of options, but if it eventuates in the fact that I don't see my car or my engine the whole time I'm developing and designing it (which is the real eye candy that you should be able to lay your eyes on every once in a while), then it get's a little... tiring. And you don't want a game to be tiring if you hope people are going to spend a lot of time playing it. On the other hand, the design side of making the cars come to life is lacking detail. What I mean by that is these really small things that you can do after it's almost finished but you need just a touch here and a touch there... a good example of that would be if you would be able to design your own model badges or emblems and then put them on the car like other stuff (what I mean for everyone to understand is when you look at real cars, the model writings and the "20 valve" and "Turbo" words on trunklids of every car is also designed like every little bit on the car. Seeing what you have done with the car designer so far, it shouldn't be impossible to build in a kind of a "text editor" the same way, to be able to stretch text and numbers and design your own badges and writings?


Ok sorry guys, this post getting way too long before I get all my thoughts out... and really I apologize again if I'm being a little too opinionated and saying bad things about the game. I just really think criticism is a force that takes us forward in the world and I myself have always appreciated it in my work. Thank you for reading the ultra long post if you indeed did read through this jabbing.

EDIT:
and just remembered that the thread on the subject of piracy was locked but I wanted to add that as many others wrote in the thread, you can do whatever you come up with, but the game will be cracked no matter what. Most games get cracked a day or two before the official release??!! So instead of doing all the work to fight piracy and be disappointed of the results, spend time to make your product even better! And I imagine it doesn't change your income, if anything it can work against you ultimately as a lot of gamers indeed try out cracked versions before buying anything - whether to check how it runs on their system or if they like the game or not... and these are the only potential buyers anyway. If a person is not willing to support game developers, they will not buy one game in their life, same with music industry and all these things that are affected by piracy. I download cracked games and albums myself but hand on my heart, I've bought every game and album that I wanted to have, because I respect people who work for a result that impresses me but I don't want to buy a pig in a bag (at least that's the saying here in my country) so I evaluate my investments beforehand. PC games these days are not cheap.

[Killrob]

Yes, read it all and have to agree with what you are saying in general. Many of the issues you mention are not solvable in a feasible way with the resources (money and manpower) we have at our disposal though. We have to carefully weigh every little feature and potential improvement and choose the biggest value per time and money from that list. The things you mention fall short because there are more important things to do in order to get the best experience out of the game with our resources. We do appreciate the feedback though!

de-clutter and then add detail or vice versa, add detail and then de-clutter

Do you have any specific examples? That is not a very specific statement.

[Daffyflyer]

I almost entirely agree with your points, and most of them are just a case of what's possible technically, or what's possible for a small and fairly low budget team to pull off successfully.

Just to chip in with a few words as the artist here.

On point 1: Yep, I 100% agree that the deforming tools are not amazing, but it's a hellish thing to create any kind of tools that actually allow you to reshape a car in a meaningful way, but without having to spend a lot of time practicing actual modeling skills, which is unreasonable to expect from a player. Our deforming stuff is a slightly hacky solution, but it at least allows anyone a decent amount of control over how some of the more major parts of a car look. We're mostly aiming to fill the gaps in what the deforming can do by having as many base body shapes as we can. It's not ideal, but it's the best we've got.


On Point 3: the Test Track was never actually going to make it as a feature for Automation 1.0. Even though we got a lot of folks (including ourselves) wanting it, it just seemed out of reach for a tiny team like us.
Then Der Bayer wrote some really good simulation code for us, and it seemed a shame not to waste it. So we figured we'd at least do a simple 2d representation to partially satisfy the people who really wanted to see laptimes and nerd out on the telemetry graphs etc.

Now that it's a part of the game it's ended up being the core of lots of what the forum community likes doing (race challenges etc.), so it's here to stay for sure. It's also turned out quite accidently, that the 2d representation has made it really easy for the community to make tracks, which is nice.

If we make a whole bunch of money and can bring on a decent sized team, the data that's used to drive the 2d test track can equally be used to drive a full on 3d test track, and that's something we'd certainly consider given enough resources.


Thanks for your well reasoned feedback, and I hope this answers some of your questions as to why we've made the choices we have.

[WizzyThaMan]

Now this is a great way to explain why you think features should change in the game. I hope a lot of newcomers and those who've been here longer take an example on this.
Eventhough there is stuff in there that has been mentioned before, when explained like this, it actually makes sense instead of yelling we need V6s, Diesels and Superchargers!

ONTOPIC:

Very reasonable stuff you put down there (I'm not a developer of this game!). I totally agree with you on the 'being in the dark' for where the morphable areas are. This could probably be fixed by adding a white dot on places where these morphs are. I have an old picture on that (which is having way too many dots) on something I suggested before. Maybe the developers can add this during the 'Fine-tuning' stage of the games development for Steam?

As said, way too many dots, but you get the idea hopefully. It just needs to indicate where the morphable places are!

The amount of specifications, graphs, numbers and all other stuff you get makes this game unique. Not only can you create cars that handle slightly better than your competitors car or even accelerate faster etc., it also offers schools a chance to use this game to explain how engines work and such, as most calculations are 99% accurate, if not 100%. I think they pointed out the stats that really matter in a good way, and if you want to go on a nerdfrenzy on your car, you can try to get all the other numbers to suit what you think is best.

As for the part where you spoke about being able to reshape your car into a sportier model without having to redo all the fixtures, I totally agree. I put that down here on the forums in some post quite a while ago, but it is technically near to impossible to make everything work without getting really buggy. Another way to pretty much save your precious work, is to save front- and rearend designs into a custom save slot so you can simply reselect en put on those headlights, grills etc. with a certain position and measurement back onto the car. If you have this typical grill and badge for your company, or even headlights, you can then put it on whenever and make sure its exactly the same on all of your company cars.

[Killrob]

What I would like to add to the discussion on morphing is a different perspective on the issue: more choice here is NOT better for the game. There are only few gameplay elements that are affected by the shape of the car, most of the morphs are completely cosmetic anyway already.

This is not furthering gameplay and more a distraction from the core game than it is helping it. Sure, people WANT it, but people also WANT race fuel, open-wheelers, driving your car, etc. From a design and flow standpoint, they would actually make the game worse because it becomes less focused on what it is good at.

Any hardcore player / min-maxer playing the campaign would only ever alter the morphs that do matter after some "fun tinkering" with shapes (size front, size rear, wheel-arches). I'm not suggesting that the current morphing is too much, but what I am saying is that there is a balance, and I think we're very close to an optimal amount of possible customization to 1) not invest too much resources and time and 2) make possible a satisfying amount of tinkering.

[WizzyThaMan]

I'm not pointing at MORE MORPHABLE areas, just a better indication of WHERE MORPHABLE AREAS ARE.
As for tinkering and editing after adding fixtures, it would be nice if we could, but definetly not main priority of course! it works now, but is just a lot of work to recreate everything for a sporty version of your car

[Kev2442]

Well actually, we'd be less asking for fixtures and all if we knew how it's made !
Right now, I figure out an X,Y,Z axis for each fixture and these numbers stored as the fixture's position.
If that's so, I might have a hint on a solution.

The least we'd need is placement and size coordinates for each fixture. That way, we can get our way through the problem.
I don't mind writing down every single thing as long as I can do the following :
- Shape out a body,
- Make basic model (writing fixture coordinates),
- Take the body and shape it out as a sportier model,
- Place the fixtures on the very same place as the other one as long as possible.

It's long and boring, but at least it's feasible.
Maybe we could also give the body morph positions as well.
I'm interested in the tycoon part, but I won't lie : I'm mostly here for the opportunity to design my own cars and see how nice they'd be.

I think I made a similar topic some time ago. I might get it back if people wanna discuss it a bit more.

Back on topic : I agree with everything here, but I don't think we should use dots.
Maybe we should make every morphable fixture lightened up, as if you were hovering over them, just not as visible.
These would lighten up only on this tab.

I don't think we really need more morphable parts, it's good already.

[WizzyThaMan]

Having them all light up on that particular tab is not a good idea. I think these dots work, as this shows you where they are and as soon as you hover on those dots they light up. That show I would do it. I agree with the topicstarter that they are 'hidden' right now. Yes they are easily detectable when you hover over them but still.

On those coordinates, I agree that might be a good solution. You get something like in Forza when placing vinyls on your cars. That would be a great solution. Still, how would you make your grill, lights and other fixture have the same shape and rotation? You would need numbers on those too.
It would be too much numbers I guess. Sure designing your cars is fun and essential in this game. But how far would you want to go? If you want to go far in this, you might as well want the interior designer to be as broad as the engine and body designer and that is not going to happen before the Automation 1.0 release.

Nevertheless, I agree coordinates would help a little at least for now, so if possible, implement it for us

[Kev2442]

What I meant is for a red paint :
Actual :
- Red paint on car
- Bright red when spot is hovered on
What I mean :
- Red paint as usual
- Bright red when hovered
- Not-so-bright red on every available spot as long as you're on the body-morphing tab (disappears when on the fixtures tab)

Forza is exactly what I said as an example in my said topic.
For shape and rotation, I already said that : position coordinates and size factors.
That would make a lot of numbers yeah, that's why it should be togglable.

Maybe we could make something like parallelograms or isosceles trapezoids modificators ? That would add many possibilities using current fixtures if possible.
You don't have to make it, just say it's feasible and I'll mod the heck out of it !

[Daffyflyer]

What I meant is for a red paint :
Actual :
- Red paint on car
- Bright red when spot is hovered on
What I mean :
- Red paint as usual
- Bright red when hovered
- Not-so-bright red on every available spot as long as you're on the body-morphing tab (disappears when on the fixtures tab)

With the current setup, that'd render a pretty large percentage of the car not-so-bright red. Though it still miiiight be workable.

[Drake]

On Point 3: the Test Track was never actually going to make it as a feature for Automation 1.0. Even though we got a lot of folks (including ourselves) wanting it, it just seemed out of reach for a tiny team like us.
Then Der Bayer wrote some really good simulation code for us, and it seemed a shame not to waste it. So we figured we'd at least do a simple 2d representation to partially satisfy the people who really wanted to see laptimes and nerd out on the telemetry graphs etc.

Now that it's a part of the game it's ended up being the core of lots of what the forum community likes doing (race challenges etc.), so it's here to stay for sure. It's also turned out quite accidently, that the 2d representation has made it really easy for the community to make tracks, which is nice.

If we make a whole bunch of money and can bring on a decent sized team, the data that's used to drive the 2d test track can equally be used to drive a full on 3d test track, and that's something we'd certainly consider given enough resources.

Do you think the test track as it is now could be improved to be an actual motorsport simulation?.. Or would that require a completely new system?

It seems like the simulation is pretty good as it is, but is just lacking when it comes to the more dynamic aspects of the simulation(Tire wear, tire temp, brake fade, brake temp, fuel weight, etc) as well as the actual races an whatnot.. The game seems to track things like brake fade already if only for the stats; I'm sure temperature could be calculated by a number of factors such as the pad material and type of disc. Tire wear and temp should be possible too.. So it seems promising that an actual motorsport simulation could be done, atleast from where I'm sitting..

[Daffyflyer]

Do you think the test track as it is now could be improved to be an actual motorsport simulation?.. Or would that require a completely new system?

It seems like the simulation is pretty good as it is, but is just lacking when it comes to the more dynamic aspects of the simulation(Tire wear, tire temp, brake fade, brake temp, fuel weight, etc) as well as the actual races an whatnot.. The game seems to track things like brake fade already if only for the stats; I'm sure temperature could be calculated by a number of factors such as the pad material and type of disc. Tire wear and temp should be possible too.. So it seems promising that an actual motorsport simulation could be done, atleast from where I'm sitting..

Der Bayer would be the man to answer that, but I'm pretty sure it'd work quite well for motorsport simulation, with some additional calculations added.

It'll never do real time race simulation with the user controlling the car, but I can't see any reason why it couldn't in future be expanded to simulate AI racing.

[Der Bayer]

Things like tyre wear and fuel consumption are not a big issue. The hardest part is modelling the "traffic" and the general AI. Not every lap should be the same and drivers should defend their position and so on. Maybe I can play around with that and try a few things out, but we'll see. Don't expect any useful results though.

[NormanVauxhall]

What I meant is for a red paint :
Actual :
- Red paint on car
- Bright red when spot is hovered on
What I mean :
- Red paint as usual
- Bright red when hovered
- Not-so-bright red on every available spot as long as you're on the body-morphing tab (disappears when on the fixtures tab)

With the current setup, that'd render a pretty large percentage of the car not-so-bright red. Though it still miiiight be workable.

When I saw the older screens of the game, where on the morphable area there was a small white box I thought it was a good idea.
Maybe make the hovering box visible / not visible via a button on the UI of the morph tab will be an intresting way to point out the morhable zone... or also the different color areas, but with a toggle button to highlight/shut off them.
The highlighted pats sometimes collide a lot (the rear of the 90's coupe), so different boxes maybe will be more immediate.

[Drake]

Der Bayer would be the man to answer that, but I'm pretty sure it'd work quite well for motorsport simulation, with some additional calculations added.

It'll never do real time race simulation with the user controlling the car, but I can't see any reason why it couldn't in future be expanded to simulate AI racing.

Things like tyre wear and fuel consumption are not a big issue. The hardest part is modelling the "traffic" and the general AI. Not every lap should be the same and drivers should defend their position and so on. Maybe I can play around with that and try a few things out, but we'll see. Don't expect any useful results though.

That sounds pretty promising

I don't much care about the actual driving or racing myself, there are plenty of good racing sims out there already..

The team management though I really enjoy, and there are very few good games of this type out there.. I don't know about everyone else, but I would gladly pay for a DLC with this content.