Economic Ideas !?!

[Killrob]

How would a low quality brand be damaged by a high quality car?
That stuff will be in though... if you are playing as a supercar manufacturer and build an I3 eco citycar, then your brand image / prestige will suffer.

[bundyaxl]

In regards to the topic of aesthetics.

I know this has been mentioned in other posts and most likely the game will already have a similar mechanic.

Maybe there can be something like a random event that will make a descent (at least average but not best stats in class) car sell poorly in certain regions even though it does well in others because it didn't appeal to their taste. I know for a time anyway that some of the North American brands had mostly different model lineups in America and Europe and I think it was partly an aesthetic reason.

Though I'm sure with so many groups the demographics will be different in various regions so certain cars already might not sell well in some regions. Also I'm assuming that certain regions will have different focus as well. So some regions will sell a lot of bigger trucks and suv's (like North America in real life) while others will probably be focused more on economic cars (like Europe in real life).

[vrmcardoso]

I have always said I was against even atempting to create an aesthetics evaluation mechanic and I think this discussion actualy made realise why.

I have commented in a previous thread about this subject that the development would be simply impossible. As Daffy said "It would be like teaching a robot to love" This is actually more acurate than he realises.

The problem with such a mechanic is that taste is extremely dynamic. I dont mean we all love diferent things. I mean we all love diferent things because of our context. We are to taught to like some things and not others. This is done because of the design trends, popular artistic movements, simply because we want to immitate those we admire, etc. This is the reason fashion is an industry. It is also the reason it is cyclical. Because it can be influenced to a certain degree.

The perfect example for this is the Beetle. It was widely considered to be ugly when first introduced in the US, but became a monstruous success. Why? Because Marketing "taught" Hippies to like it. Because Pop culture became a mainstream movement etc. etc.

How do you simulate this? You can't. any attempts would be mere simplifications that would probably be more anoying than fun.

I think the decision to make car bodies with certain base atributes like "this is a van and not a super sports car" and "this is an 80's design" etc. to be more than enough. And quite elegant as well. You could probably make it a little more gamey with stats like "50% more popular among women" but this is probably not the route the dev team is taking.

[Drummerdude48]

I have the utmost faith, based on everything that has been produced so far, that the devs will get it right with whichever route they take.

[Daffyflyer]

I have always said I was against even atempting to create an aesthetics evaluation mechanic and I think this discussion actualy made realise why.

I have commented in a previous thread about this subject that the development would be simply impossible. As Daffy said "It would be like teaching a robot to love" This is actually more acurate than he realises.

The problem with such a mechanic is that taste is extremely dynamic. I dont mean we all love diferent things. I mean we all love diferent things because of our context. We are to taught to like some things and not others. This is done because of the design trends, popular artistic movements, simply because we want to immitate those we admire, etc. This is the reason fashion is an industry. It is also the reason it is cyclical. Because it can be influenced to a certain degree.

The perfect example for this is the Beetle. It was widely considered to be ugly when first introduced in the US, but became a monstruous success. Why? Because Marketing "taught" Hippies to like it. Because Pop culture became a mainstream movement etc. etc.

How do you simulate this? You can't. any attempts would be mere simplifications that would probably be more anoying than fun.

I think the decision to make car bodies with certain base atributes like "this is a van and not a super sports car" and "this is an 80's design" etc. to be more than enough. And quite elegant as well. You could probably make it a little more gamey with stats like "50% more popular among women" but this is probably not the route the dev team is taking.

Yes, all of that!

[JohnnyOnTheSpot]

I personally think aesthetics SHOULD matter, but I agree that having a computer judge beauty will lead to cookie-cutter designs. Your options would either be:

1) randomized visual cues that the designer would have to try to meet. You could set a randomized target shape for each body panel. Maybe the designer has to do market research to see what buyers want- this could be shown in as a rough sketch and some descriptive text. Leave it to the player to translate the model to 3D. This could then allow the player to make a few concept cars and then the computer could "score" each concept on how closely they meet the target. This information would give the player direction for the final production vehicle. Once a model has been on the floor for a few years and is ready for a refresh maybe marketing could stop by and say something like "people want a bigger grill, wider fenders, blah blah". Unfortunately if this is randomized there will inevitably be some UGLY combinations! If you take the time I would imagine you could set "limits" for what combinations look good and prevent something like the Aztec from coming to fruition

2) Let the other players judge cars. I don't think it would be too much of a burden to make a player rate aesthetics of a car 1-5 based on a few snapshots or something? What if after a major event (concept car unveiling, production release, etc) there is a required minute time-out where you need to scroll through and rate 10 cars based on pictures. It seems like there is a TON of interest in this game so I am sure there will be more than enough users to do this. I think if you set a time limit and a quantity requirement it would prevent people from scrolling through and blasting the same rating over and over! You could also award unlock parts or something for rating other's designs to give some incentive.

[WizzyThaMan]

Of course the car designer could set standards for cars. Example:

You wish to aim for middle aged men, who would like a sporty car. You conduct a research to that group, and it proves that they do not want a 4 door car. So it has to be 2 door (checkable either through the base model used, or the amount of doorhandles on the car? I would say the last, as you then can use any model.) It has to look quite modern, so no box shapes (ofcourse in a certain era) (could add a value to check for smoothness (not sure anymore if windtunnel will be in? I forgot!) so it checks aerodynamics) and it should contain a spoiler/ double exhausts.

This way you can set standards that particular group wishes to have at that point, and you can still have your freedom designing. Doesnt mean you have to follow them and that you wont have success if you dont follown them. It could actually be a hit! But it increases the chances of making a popular model for that target group. This way, aesthetics are taken into account, but dont require a 'teaching a robot to love.'

Small other example:

Soccermoms would like a spacious car with 4 or more doors. So if you come with your hot hatch with 2 door only, it wont be a hit of course for the soccermoms! Minivans or estates are more the type of car to aim for then.

Rough idea:
Another thing could be, that some sort of safety is taken into account. Lets say, visibility, so you need large or multiple headlights (fog lights or such?) and large enough taillights. Also extra indicators could matter. Though, there should be some sort of check maybe that a car doesnt turn awkward just tossing 20 headlights and taillights in?

[Killrob]

Aesthetics will not matter. The reasons for that have been given in this thread. Having randomized limits or have other players judge the designs does not solve the core issue of forcing players to build cars they do not personally like.

[Daffyflyer]

Practical and somewhat aesthetic things WILL matter in the sense that sports car buyers will probably gravitate towards low slung 2 door coupes etc. but they won't know/care about the morphing of the body, the headlights, vents etc.

I'm sorry guys, but it's just not possible to have a reliable way of judging the looks of cars that actually agrees with real world tastes, it's just going to be infuriating to players attempting to judge what the computer likes. I know many of you are convinced that it's possible, but I don't see a way as it's even hard to quantify the attributes of a good looking car, never mind convince a piece of software to judge them..

[WizzyThaMan]

Practical and somewhat aesthetic things WILL matter in the sense that sports car buyers will probably gravitate towards low slung 2 door coupes etc. but they won't know/care about the morphing of the body, the headlights, vents etc.

That's exactly what I meant.

I'm sorry guys, but it's just not possible to have a reliable way of judging the looks of cars that actually agrees with real world tastes, it's just going to be infuriating to players attempting to judge what the computer likes. I know many of you are convinced that it's possible, but I don't see a way as it's even hard to quantify the attributes of a good looking car, never mind convince a piece of software to judge them..

On topic of the fixtures, it should be possible like in the engine designer challenges, to get minimum requirements, like the amount of doorhandles or exhausts placed on the car? Not trying to convince you or push you guys, but just trying to point something out that already has been implemented. Im not sure the way the game sees what fixture has been placed or if it even can see it like doorhandle_1a, doorhandle_2c etc. Note that these requirements should only be some sort of advice towards the player, thus not restricting them, but the advice will be random, based on the targetgroup, year, and other variables.

[Killrob]

There will be minimum requirements regarding fixtures, yes! That only makes sense.

[FordManFromHell]

Not sure if this was already suggested but anyways; my idea would be that you could have a simple slider for the cars aesthetics, like these quality sliders that we already have.

[Der Bayer]

You can use the quality sliders on the Fixtures and Body Tabs for that. They both give you +1% Prestige per click. So basically doing research on fixtures and bodies makes your designs "better".

[FordManFromHell]

Yeah ok, but im talking about implementing aesthetics to the game..

EDIT: With a "aesthetics" -slider

[FordManFromHell]

I suppose you could do a slider like this: Trendy car <-----> Good looking car

Going either way will make the production of the car cost more, but instead leaving it to the middle would not accumulate any extra cost. Then you can do a trendy looking small car for the hipsters, good looking Grand Tourer for the rich people, and a dirt cheap plain looking car for the ones that only need car to travel from A to B.

I suppose this would at least add more depht to the immersion of the game. And also is not too hard to implement?