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Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

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Manche

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Post Thu May 07, 2015 2:37 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

hmmmm.... if only I could have sorted the suspension... I'm sure I would at least be second.. but this is what happens when I hyperfocus some thing are left
unattended

On a side note, I can imagine the wave of fear Going through the spine of the magazine's staff "OH NOES! THE GUIDOS THE COMMIES AND THE SPICS ARE TAKING
OVER!"

On yet another side Note Sebatian Machado The Second is already growling at the engineers to sort out the suspension and he's saying he's going to acquire forging equipment.
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Post Thu May 07, 2015 9:43 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Manche wrote:On a side note, I can imagine the wave of fear Going through the spine of the magazine's staff "OH NOES! THE GUIDOS THE COMMIES AND THE SPICS ARE TAKING OVER!"


Kind of what I was trying to convey. :lol: The American automotive press, even in the 80's, wasn't super tolerant of foreign cars.

(and on a side note, I actually saw a Trabant driving down the street the other day when I was dropping my kids off at school...)
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Post Thu May 07, 2015 10:10 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Excellent work. I can hardly wait for the next event.
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Post Thu May 07, 2015 10:11 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Weird....... and I hope you catched all the slurs.
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Post Thu May 07, 2015 5:15 pm

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Those reviews were great. Good competition, I enjoyed it :D
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 3:54 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Was safety my wagons downfall? Or the 20 mpg?
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 5:56 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Both. Though the fuel economy was the bigger factor. If you had hit 42 safety and 24 MPG, you probably would have beat the Baltazar.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 6:35 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Oh well, it seems then that had I cared more for fuel economy, I would have climbed a few more places. That is a bit weird, since safety has "moderate" weight, where as the costs have "slight" weight. Therefore, I assumed that safety was more important then fuel economy, so I poured more money on that. That actually was one of my concerns with the structure of the challenge, since the instructions aren't crystal clear.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 6:40 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

A way to prevent misunderstandings might be to give a numerical value to the importance of the various factor, or put them all on one single linear scale of some kind.

Some people seem somewhat confused about the difference in importance between the various things within the same weight, like high weight moderate and high weight slight.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 9:47 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

trackpaduser wrote:A way to prevent misunderstandings might be to give a numerical value to the importance of the various factor, or put them all on one single linear scale of some kind.

Some people seem somewhat confused about the difference in importance between the various things within the same weight, like high weight moderate and high weight slight.


Something like this?

Category 1 (15%): Subcategory 1 (40%) Subcategory 2 (10%) Subcategory 3 (50%)

Category 2 (35%): Subcategory 1 (25%) Subcategory 2 (75%)

Category 3 (50%): Subcategory 1 (10%) Subcategory 2 (30%) Subcategory 3 (60%)


I think that would work best, kinda like how it is done in the Scenarios.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 10:18 am

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Maybe something even simpler, by just having categories but no subcategories.

Although it all depends on exactly how Vic's formulas work.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

If y'all have been paying attention, they're based on Zabhawkin's original "Best car" formula, which uses a lot of square roots. It's very similar to his current "Adapt or die".

Because of all them square roots, plus the fact that I weight things with multipliers, "simply" posting the formula at the beginning of the competition is actually a bit of a nightmare. But also because the scale between different stats (ex: comfort, practicality, and economy) are all different, a "normal" weight on one stat may carry more or less weight than another. For instance, a "normal" weight on practicality, whose scale is 2-3 times higher than comfort, makes it worth more than a "heavy" weight on Comfort.

You can be rest assured that there IS a mathematical formula before I ever post, the SAME mathematical formula is applied to all cars in a given competition, and that I don't fudge anything based on how much I like/dislike a specific design. You can also be assured that I have designed at a minimum 3 different vehicles in a balancing exercise to make sure that different approaches will yield similar results. Yes, not testing the not-Defender body this time around (because I had forgotten about its existence) was an oversight on my part. If I were to find a similar disparity in the future, I would either handicap or ban the specific body beforehand.

If that's not enough for you all, I suppose I COULD post the individual competition-specific spreadsheet in the original post, going forward. But... IMO that takes away some of the "magic" of engineering a solution through a relatively quick design process, and turns the thing into a slugfest of who has the most time to devote to tweaking their individual car for every single bloody point.

One of the things I've heard repeatedly as a good point of this series that I've been running is how quick and fun it is. I DON'T want to mire it down by making the individual designers focus so much on mathematics that they forget about or ignore the design element, or take hours on end tweaking it. That would not be personally fun for me if I were an entrant in a competition (and, for the record, when I created my car's for Zab's Adapt or Die... I only made sure the fleet made the minimum fuel standards, as well as the individual stat minimums for each demographic. I didn't create a spreadsheet with every calculation that he posted, obsessively tweaking and redesigning. My entire fleet of five cars took an hour to design.)

As I said, if you guys REALLY REALLY want, I'll start posting the calculation spreadsheet in the OP of new challenges going forward. But I'm against it because of what it will then do to the challenge. And remember:

Consistent math, determined before the opening of the competition. Pre-balanced with a minimum of 3 designs. No favoritism.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 12:56 pm

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

NormanVauxhall wrote:I have mixed feeling about this victory.

I'm not happy that I used the not-Defender body, I was in conflict with myself and still I am. I feel a bit... cheater.
I've confessed my personal conflict in live chat to Conan and Leonardo9613. My first choice was the not-Golf SW body, but it had some graphic bug that annoyed me a lot.

I was on the edge of the rules for that... but I'm happy that the car had good result.

Thanks again to VicVictory about this great challenge. Keep up the good work! This is a great formula.
I really hope that the next you challenge you are planning are about cars that I don't like very much... because I can't participate to the next 2 :P


I don't see the use of the not-Defender as cheating. IRL upright 4wd bodies are more practical and their offroad ability gives them utility that a car body cannot hope to match. The early 80's is also the right time for the 4WD boom to start!

Without the 4WD revolution (and their bad safety record) the soft-roader concept wouldn't have happened and the MPV would never have been born. IMO you're over-thinking the result Norman as the body you used was available to us all, but a competition full of 4wd's would have been boring so I for one am glad I built a (losing!) sedan with monocoque that reflected my view on family transport. Norman, your family transporter is the best, but I'd still buy something like mine as I like driving the car, not just getting from A to B!

Please VicVictory don't change your system; it's fine as it is. Besides, I've seen Zab's calculation (adapt or die front page) and it frightens me!
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

HighOctaneLove wrote:Please VicVictory don't change your system; it's fine as it is. Besides, I've seen Zab's calculation (adapt or die front page) and it frightens me!



What are you afraid of a little math?!?!?

I have been putting some serious thought into generalizing the weightings as Vic has, it puts a little mystery into it for me.

Edit: The equation forces the designer to look at the car as a whole, not just a few key stats.
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Family Haulers [1980] [REVIEW POSTED]

Zabhawkin wrote:What are you afraid of a little math?!?!?


Yes actually :lol: my skills with math lie in the accounting field, not formulas! :?
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