Bavarian Rallye Challenge: The Real Deal [FINISHED]

[Reaper392]

I have pulled the damn car apart, and I disagree with you, there's no secret, it's just a very well tuned car, a car the makers spend so much time trying to make it go at the damn near limit of everything, seeing the engine setting will reveal that it's on the edge of the tolerable beyond-the-limit area, literally, remember the crazy engine I made deep in the training or this very thread a while ago? These people made a conceptually similar (albeit, my engine was wholly unoptimised, but it's both a spooling at around 6500rpm 600+hp V8 engine) to actually work well in their machines, and won. So I guess we can put all the doubt at rest and embrace the remarkable machine these people have made, they're great.

I am not belittling their achievement in any way with what I say and you are right when you say their car was very well tuned all around. Also, getting first and second place in this competition is truly incredible. However, when taking just a few lessons from their car (mostly what is mentioned in my previous post) and applying it to my own car I was able to transform my slower V8 contender that I didn't enter into something that would have won this competition by over 15 seconds, getting 1st place on every track except for stage 2 (where it would have been 7th).

As I said though, discovering how to make a car this fast for the competition was a very impressive feat by WRT, whereas me cherry picking the good bits and applying them to my own car is not exactly difficult.

[mer_at]

We do not condone using the setup specifically tuned for this rally in daily driving, that is why a rally is a rally, and not regular road driving

LOL
in a real rally it would still drive like a sack of potatoes. But bugusing is ok, since it helps the automation team find the limits of their simulation, and correct those mistakes.

[conan]

I have pulled the damn car apart, and I disagree with you, there's no secret, it's just a very well tuned car, a car the makers spend so much time trying to make it go at the damn near limit of everything, seeing the engine setting will reveal that it's on the edge of the tolerable beyond-the-limit area, literally, remember the crazy engine I made deep in the training or this very thread a while ago? These people made a conceptually similar (albeit, my engine was wholly unoptimised, but it's both a spooling at around 6500rpm 600+hp V8 engine) to actually work well in their machines, and won. So I guess we can put all the doubt at rest and embrace the remarkable machine these people have made, they're great.

I am not belittling their achievement in any way with what I say and you are right when you say their car was very well tuned all around. Also, getting first and second place in this competition is truly incredible. However, when taking just a few lessons from their car (mostly what is mentioned in my previous post) and applying it to my own car I was able to transform my slower V8 contender that I didn't enter into something that would have won this competition by over 15 seconds, getting 1st place on every track except for stage 2 (where it would have been 7th).

As I said though, discovering how to make a car this fast for the competition was a very impressive feat by WRT, whereas me cherry picking the good bits and applying them to my own car is not exactly difficult.

I'm not suggesting you were belittling their car. Sorry that my message turns out that way, we have problem with communication on this forums before and I don't want to create another, so I'm sorry about sending out the message in the wrong way.

Having a car optimised for times from trying and testing for hours is not a secret, it's just something that anybody could do, but some will, or won't, it depends on them, of course if you pulled the work of those who've done so well apart, you'll see how they've done so well, and you can adapt it to your own work, it's typical thing that happens in every part of our life. And also, seeing the finished product and adapting it to your own car is easier, that is a fact, that's why there's such thing as reverse engineering, but of course, this has it's advantages, and disadvantages, the latter of which I assume is the part of why there won't be any more BRC rallies.

Yeah, the car will drives like shit in real life, it understeer wildly, the winning car has no front anti roll bar at all, but it went round the track the quickest with the current version of the game, that's some achievement. Me myself, like some other people, don't care for it that much, but we still congratulate the winners, it is an Achievement, something that they have achieved. Well done guys!

(No, don't assume my comments reflect my full opinion, please).

[Junny]

Props to Der bayer for his efforts

Pretty Stoked for the Volvo's 7th placing and Rx7 3rd

[Reaper392]

I'm not suggesting you were belittling their car. Sorry that my message turns out that way, we have problem with communication on this forums before and I don't want to create another, so I'm sorry about sending out the message in the wrong way.

Don't worry, I said that stuff about not belittling the WRC entry because I didn't want the post I was writing to sound like it was belittling their car. I didn't think you were accusing me of belittling their car with the post before that

[strop]

Actually while we are on the topic, there is a very valid question about the parameters of the tuning exemplified by the fact that the WRT Turbo cars have their front sway bar set to "0".

What do the values actually correspond to? I was also surprised that the times kept actually falling and seemed like they would continue to fall as I kept lowering the front sway bar stiffness, and since 0 was the minimum value I left it at that. In other circumstances, usually past a certain tolerance that is well above "0", the car's turning performance would indeed drop due to excessive lateral transfer.

I'm not a tuner in real life, so I'm not that familiar with the exact values... all I've ever had to go on are many computer game simulations, in which quite frequently the value "0" only denotes a minimum of the parameter, as opposed to 0, because yes, it's ridiculous for a car to have literally zero stiffness to a sway bar. It's because of this I had no trouble accepting that since the car seemed to go fastest at "0", that's what I would set it to.

[Route99]

Looks like there is three BRC 1100 results and only one of Super 1000
By the way, will there be any competitons in near future?

[Der Bayer]

Oops, seems like I messed that one pic up.

0 for the sway bar means there is none. It's possible and okay to use that.

Regarding the most recent bug exploit insults: This one is quite a bit different that the aero bug. It's not obvious for the less experienced suspension tuner. So please don't insult anyone for actually "using" that bug for his advantage, I'm 100% sure no one knew that there was a problem. I'd even not really call it "bug" but a "imbalance".

What happens: At very low ride heights, one or more axles can bottom out in corners if soft springs and no sway bars are used. See WRT: soft front axle, hard rear axle. Usually this suspension setup would mean hell of a lot of oversteer. But because the front axle is bottoming out, it loses grip first. So at low ride heights it can happen that the understeer/oversteer characteristics are turned around. So far I don't see a problem in that simulation. If anyone does, please tell us.

Why is that faster? The problem lies in the simple test track simulation itself. The sportiness/tameness ratio drops and punishes the not very driveable car less. Here is the imbalance. Bottoming out must be punished more in the tameness statistics (the body bump test is only measured over a 2 cm bump, thus the effect is currently barely noticeable). In the tycoon game, the cars would be shit because they already lose lots of comfort because of bottoming out a bit, but the effect on tameness is not big enough. We had a talk about it in a dev-meeting some weeks ago but nothing has been changed yet as far as I know.

So please calm down a bit.

[strop]

Thanks for that explanation Der Bayer, that answers not one, but actually three of my questions! (The bottoming out question was one floating around in the back of my mind from the weeks where the main activity was the AT track time attacks, and while I was scrutinising the bump test I wondered how big the bump was as the variance in time to rebound wasn't particularly high given the values were already small to begin with!). I look forward to seeing how that is addressed, though, as you say, one wouldn't dream of attempting to market this kind of car in the tycoon mode LOL.

I better go take another look at the Nightfury's suspension setup and see if that front sway bar isn't too soft...

p.s. how, given the current simulation, can I tell if my car would bottom out?

[Der Bayer]

It's a soft transition between not bottoming out and bottoming out (rubber buffers). With the suspension slider at the lowest setting, there is only a tiny amount of free wheel travel left, but I don't know how much from memory. After that, the suspension becomes progressively harder.

[Cheeseman]

Mid-field finish for my entries... Not bad. Thanks for all your hard work Der Bayer

[Reaper392]

I don't know if automation's suspension simulation is capable of this, but a temporary fix could be to have the corner test be on slightly bumpy ground. I imagine that if the car is riding on its bump stops the cornering figure that it would spit out would be much lower. I know this wouldn't be the most realistic way of fixing the problem because there are cars like the Mazda MX5 that are designed to ride on the bump stops during heavy cornering, but it would certainly fix more cases than it would break if you could do this.

[Der Bayer]

No, that's not possible.

[nialloftara]

I'm quite happy with the results of the brc, I stayed a almost consistent 9 seconds off the fastest time on every stage, solid reliable performance. Nice job everyone and much thanks to der bayer for hosting this.

[Reaper392]

No, that's not possible.

Thought it wouldn't be but i wasn't quite sure. Is there some way you can detect if the car is riding on its bump stops during the corner tests at various speeds? If you can do that then you could penalise the grip of that tyre based on how fast the car is going and the minimum speed that the car can hit its bump stops. Again, not realistic, but fixes the problem of these setups