The Car Shopping Round (Round 9)

[AirJordan]

My vote is on single thread, no cool-off 5 days instead of a week and gentlemen's courtesy. If someone wins just after being a buyer I would let him/her decide. Maybe he/she has got another brilliant idea or maybe do not want ever to host a thing like this again spontaneous and stuff

Looking forward to the story

[carskick]

Carskick, does this mean your shifter is not H pattern, but more of an up/down stick? I feel you've touched upon an idea that lurks around in some minds but is not frequently discussed due to just how polarising the manual thing can be. Some GG builds require the use of an additional clutch input despite the sequential transmission too, but for somewhat different reasons than the ones you provide, so you can be sure to see comment on this.

The Transmission has three basic modes

• Automatic - Shifter conforms to PRND Shift pattern
• Semi Automatic - Shifter conforms to PRND+- Shift pattern, similar to a Honda/Toyota/Mazda/BMW Torque Converter automatic with semi-auto shifting capabilites
• Manual - Shifter conforms to an H layout, which I will show below. Manual clutch

1 3 5 7
|-|-|-|
2 4 6 R

So the stick would actually hook to the electronic control box, which provides force feedback to the shifter.

For all intents and purposes of the competition, assumed it's a normal DC Sequential setup. I didn't mean to stir the pot!

[nialloftara]

I'm not picturing that setup at all, most automatics use a forward and back motion to select through the gears where at manuals follow a gated horizontal pattern, to have both when neither is required due to the electronic clutch seems a waste of space.

[Racer13]

I'm not picturing that setup at all, most automatics use a forward and back motion to select through the gears where at manuals follow a gated horizontal pattern, to have both when neither is required due to the electronic clutch seems a waste of space.

See my earlier post on the previous page, I pretty much said the same thing. It's kind of a solution to a problem that never really needed solving. Not to discount carskick idea.

[carskick]

The clutch is not electronic, it's hydraulic.

I am very surprised. Why would someone not want a manual transmission that could shift itself fully, be used like a sequential, or work like a full manual with clutch?

If I pitched it as a regular manual transmission that had the ability to shift itself in automatic mode, would you not be interested?

[strop]

I'm genuinely interested to see where this goes, because in Australia at least, there's this pretty big argument between people who use manuals vs autos, and the manual cars are sadly kind of dying out. I drive both, but sometimes my car gets used by people who can't drive stick, which precludes me from buying a manual car for my own enjoyment. Therefore while I'm not sure just how important a problem this is, it's something that's relevant to my interests which is why I'm asking so many questions about it.

So you're saying that the car has a manual gated box with a hydraulic clutch. But it also has an electronic controller that allows for sequential shifting, as well as automatic, which I assume is computer determined based on throttle input and engine speed (since there's no way it operates like a traditional auto with the planetary gear etc. etc.). Does this mean the H shifter part is disengaged entirely or does the stick move by itself in the other modes? And in sequential mode, how does one shift, flappy paddles, or still via the shifter?

[koolkei]

SNIP>REDACTED.

well then. if you say so. nevermind what i said.
sorry bout that

[strop]

I'm the OP and host of the current round, you'd think if I objected to discussion on this thread I would have said so by now, instead of contributing to it. If the topic goes beyond the scope of the round, sure. But right now, the idea is still chiefly relevant to how I'm going to be writing my judgement so it is expressly relevant to this thread. (Besides, I'm really hoping for an answer to my questions within the next 8 hours or so, because I'm planning to release the results then!)

[carskick]

I'm genuinely interested to see where this goes, because in Australia at least, there's this pretty big argument between people who use manuals vs autos, and the manual cars are sadly kind of dying out. I drive both, but sometimes my car gets used by people who can't drive stick, which precludes me from buying a manual car for my own enjoyment. Therefore while I'm not sure just how important a problem this is, it's something that's relevant to my interests which is why I'm asking so many questions about it.

So you're saying that the car has a manual gated box with a hydraulic clutch. But it also has an electronic controller that allows for sequential shifting, as well as automatic, which I assume is computer determined based on throttle input and engine speed (since there's no way it operates like a traditional auto with the planetary gear etc. etc.). Does this mean the H shifter part is disengaged entirely or does the stick move by itself in the other modes? And in sequential mode, how does one shift, flappy paddles, or still via the shifter?

Glad to see the interest!

So the answer is yes, it has an electronic controller that allows for sequential shifting. This could be performed by the user via the shifter, which would be forward and back mode, or using the paddle shifters (Assuming the car was equipped with them, it technically wouldn't be required) So depending on the car, the answer would be both. In my car, I'd prefer to have both. The whole idea of this concept is to give the user full control over how they want to control their transmission. Many cars already have both with their autos or sequential.

And you hit the nail on the head with automatic shifting. The computer would be programmed to determine which gear to be in, and how aggressive to be with the clutch. The aggressiveness/speed of the shifts and clutch action would be determined by throttle input, engine load, recent activity, and the overall behavior mode chosen by the user (Automatic, Economy, Sport, Custom).

There are two scenarios of how the shifter could work in full manual mode. Either way, the user controls the clutch. Preferably, the stick would actually be fully attached to the transmission when in manual mode, then physically disconnect at the electronic control box, where the computer could take over in the auto modes. Were this not possible, the manual shifter could just be actuated by a force feedback system in manual mode, just as it would have to while in auto modes. But any puriest would prefer a direct connection. So if a disengage on demand system could be made to work, that's what I would go with.

What this leaves you with is:
A REAL manual transmission when in full manual mode
An EMULATED sequential shifting mode
And an AUTOMATED manual transmission.

This would likely be lighter, smoother, and less bulky than a DC Sequential transmission, but probably slower to shift. Reliability? who knows. The transmission itself should be fine and easy. It would be more about the electronic control system. And if in the event of failure, it would just return to full manual, that would be best case scenario!

I hope this helps, and feel free to ask any follow up questions. I look forward to the reviews!

[strop]

Ok then. The one part I don't quite get is how does it go from being H-pattern to up-down? If the clutch is hydraulic and the shifter is obliged to be connected to the gates, then I don't see how it's possible to have the stick do the two things. Also, wouldn't that be potentially hazardous for accidentally selecting reverse?

[Racer13]

What I still don't understand is how you still have a double-clutch setup with this system if it has a mechanical connection between the transmission and the gear lever. From my understanding of how a double clutch gear box works this wouldn't be physically possible.

Also, if it is a mechanical connection I not sure you realize how complex, and thus heavy and bulky, that system would be, but I digress. That is hardly the point.

@ Strop If it was a mechanical connection that went to the gate you could have buttons or sensors along one of the gate slots that electronically detect the position of the gear stick and when auto or sequential mode are selected can use that position as a gear selection, and also simulate a lock through some sort of motor on the gear lever, but once switched to manual mode the electronics are bypassed.

[nerd]

I used a 6-speed manual in mine so yeah. But that 'used car salesman' smell can be fixed with a little cleaning. So essentially a Double-clutch manual is a regular sequential DCT with a clutch pedal using a hydraulic system?

[Dragawn]

a single hydraulic clutch pedal wouldn't be possible since there are two clutches. Let's start with how a DCT works: Basically it is two transmissions in one: Usually one transmission for even gears, another one for uneven gears and as one clutch disengages, the clutch of the "other" transmission engages. So there's no single "on/off" for the clutch, but 3-4 settings: "on1/off/on2" or "on1/off1 + on2/off2", I don't see how this is manageable with a pedal without a computer deciding whether on1 or on2 should be selected.
I don't say it's impossible, you could change the hydraulics direction depending on if an even or uneven gear is selected, although that wouldn't be smooth if you start releasing the clutch pedal whilst shifting. Ofcourse also the computer would have to have its own probably hydraulic means to disengage manual control and actuate the gearbox and clutches. It'd be one hell of a complex hydraulic system, which could fail in so many ways. Just imagine what happens if one valve breaks, leaving you without being able to shift gears or stuck in neutral in best case, and wrecking your gearbox in worst case. Valves are pretty reliable things, which only break as in getting stuck or their actuator not functioning, but there'd just be a lot of them.

Edit: I derped, you can have both clutches disengage and engage at the same time, as long as the other gearbox disengages as the other engages, effectively turning it into a bigger manual gearbox, but that doesnt take away the complexity of transferring control from mechanical to electronical.

[HighOctaneLove]

Here is a sequential shifter conversion for various Japanese performance cars...

http://www.nengun.com/ikeya-formula/sequential-shifter

This bolts onto the standard H Gate gearbox and converts the movement from the H pattern to up/down.

That being said, I think that the complexity of your idea, carskick, is it's main failing as it requires too many items to work in synch. Reading your explanation of your idea, all I could think of was the needless complexity getting in the way of the shift quality. IMO, the benefits you claim make this gearbox a 5th wheel; there's not enough benefit to make any one group happy, manual purists will just get a manual, the rest'll buy the double-clutch box...

If you want a manual that auto drivers can use then get a crashbox; the only use of the clutch is at launch and the rest of the time you just shift, firmly, and the gears mesh without the clutch pedal!

[strop]

ooh, what happens when you downshift in a crashbox? Do you need to throttle blip or will that just create havoc?