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Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 08/2014

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Zeblote

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Post Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

zeussy wrote:What we want to the game to have eventually (as expansions, and future paid content):

Don't do this :(
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Daffyflyer

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Post Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

Zeblote wrote:
zeussy wrote:What we want to the game to have eventually (as expansions, and future paid content):

Don't do this :(


The fact is unless we become widely successful, we won't be able to keep developing forever more without bringing in more money. Even at the tiny little company stage we're at right now it still costs us many thousands of dollars a month to exist. We're not talking anything super pricey, maybe something like a sub $10 expansion with Diesels, Rotaries and a few other new engine types or something. Which for the months and months of work it'd take us I think is a reasonable thing to do.
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netnut

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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:39 am

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

As a game developer myself, my suggestion would be to put the whole business aspect of the game on the backburner, temporarily, and instead toss in a drag strip with simplified controls -- meaning just a throttle and gear shifter (not unlike what you have going on in engine testing) and let people race their creations.

Because honestly, the business part of the game sounds like a major, *major* development timesink (that you haven't even really started? I think?) and my fear is that it could quickly get out of control, and potentially make you go belly up, when the gameplay benefits from such a mode are questionable, at best.

I mean, you've got a pretty sweet editor right now, but will there even be a reason to make cars "pretty" if you're just career competing vs AI? I don't know, but my feeling is that it will get old much quicker than decent drag racing multiplayer.

And no, don't tell me you'll need Forza style physics code with years of development to make a decent drag mode. You know that's simply not true. :P
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Daffyflyer

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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:54 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

netnut wrote:As a game developer myself, my suggestion would be to put the whole business aspect of the game on the backburner, temporarily, and instead toss in a drag strip with simplified controls -- meaning just a throttle and gear shifter (not unlike what you have going on in engine testing) and let people race their creations.

Because honestly, the business part of the game sounds like a major, *major* development timesink (that you haven't even really started? I think?) and my fear is that it could quickly get out of control, and potentially make you go belly up, when the gameplay benefits from such a mode are questionable, at best.



I think you misunderstand the genre of game we're making here, the gameplay benefits aren't questionable, they're they entire point of the game. The whole reason we're making this game is to fill the niche of a good car company sim, a niche that many people have wished would be filled since "Car Tycoon" and "Detroit" didn't do a very good job of it.

We have designs and prototypes around how the business side of the game will work, and of the 3 major elements of the game (Car Design, Engine Design and Business) it seems to be the most straight forward from a development point of view (though quite complex in terms of design, balancing, gameplay etc.)

You say that the career mode sounds like it would get old much faster than drag racing multiplayer, which makes me think that maybe you're not really a fan of the car company running side of things, which is fine, everyone has different tastes, but our core fanbase is really into that, the reason many of them want to play Automation is to live out their dreams of running their own car company.

I don't mean to rant, it's just we've got a very clear idea of our plans going forwards, a clear idea of what kind of market and what kind of game we're going for, and what seems so far to be an entirely sustainable business plan, so best I can see this would just divert us from our core goals and finishing the game that we've promised to our customers.
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netnut

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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:09 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

There's no misundertanding on my part, I don't think. But maybe I didn't translate my point very well, so I'll elaborate.

If I understand your situation right, it is as follows:
1) Money is pretty tight. Understandable.
2) You have a car building editor that is relatively close to completion.
and
3) You'll still need to develop a "game" to wrap around that nice editor of yours.


Now if all those points are true, then consider this:
1) While I'm sure you have business niche fans, and probably plenty of them, I also do have a feeling that (at the risk of maybe sounding a bit arrogant) your fanbase right now is mostly just into cars in general, and engines, and tuning. I mean after all, you've got an engine building demo up right now on the front page, not business stuff.
2) People that are into cars, engines, and mechanical tuning, are probably also into the competitive aspect of what tuning is all about, or going faster than the other guy. Aka racing their creations.

Now, keeping those two points in mind, let's look at your situation again. You need money, yes, and you need buzz. For that, you ideally need to finish a wrapper game around your great editor, ASAP. Get it from being a cute little single player tech demo, to being something that people *want* all their friends to buy.

With me so far? Okay, I know that developing a simple drag strip racing mode with either simplified controls (throttle+gearshifter only with no steering) OR even no controls whatsoever, takes probably what.... maybe 1/10th the effort of creating a fully fledged business simulation game? If that? After all you'd basically just be punching your dyno results into a few more variables, and visualizing it in a track view.

So my thought is basically that if you went that route, then you would find yourself better fueled to take on the rest of your game, the business side, which frankly sounds like a massive challenge for such a small team. So no, it's not because I just want a drag game and not a business simulation. I mean hell, I even loved Capitalism 2, and I don't think it can get any more business simmy than that.


Anyway, I just wanted to communicate this out to you. It doesn't mean I'm going to whine and moan about it. I mean, you've had my support already either way. :P
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eecer

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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

netnut wrote:There's no misundertanding on my part, I don't think. But maybe I didn't translate my point very well, so I'll elaborate.

If I understand your situation right, it is as follows:
1) Money is pretty tight. Understandable.
2) You have a car building editor that is relatively close to completion.
and
3) You'll still need to develop a "game" to wrap around that nice editor of yours.


Now if all those points are true, then consider this:
1) While I'm sure you have business niche fans, and probably plenty of them, I also do have a feeling that (at the risk of maybe sounding a bit arrogant) your fanbase right now is mostly just into cars in general, and engines, and tuning. I mean after all, you've got an engine building demo up right now on the front page, not business stuff.
2) People that are into cars, engines, and mechanical tuning, are probably also into the competitive aspect of what tuning is all about, or going faster than the other guy. Aka racing their creations.

Now, keeping those two points in mind, let's look at your situation again. You need money, yes, and you need buzz. For that, you ideally need to finish a wrapper game around your great editor, ASAP. Get it from being a cute little single player tech demo, to being something that people *want* all their friends to buy.

With me so far? Okay, I know that developing a simple drag strip racing mode with either simplified controls (throttle+gearshifter only with no steering) OR even no controls whatsoever, takes probably what.... maybe 1/10th the effort of creating a fully fledged business simulation game? If that? After all you'd basically just be punching your dyno results into a few more variables, and visualizing it in a track view.

So my thought is basically that if you went that route, then you would find yourself better fueled to take on the rest of your game, the business side, which frankly sounds like a massive challenge for such a small team. So no, it's not because I just want a drag game and not a business simulation. I mean hell, I even loved Capitalism 2, and I don't think it can get any more business simmy than that.


Anyway, I just wanted to communicate this out to you. It doesn't mean I'm going to whine and moan about it. I mean, you've had my support already either way. :P


Although I do think it would be nice to see how well the car does in a race, even if it was just an AI seeing what it's lap time is on one track, I must disagree with you on removing the tycoon portion. The two parts I look forward to the most would be the body design and tycoon portion of the game. The issue with just having the game thrown on the drag strip is, if you've seen some of the engine posts, we've figured out how to design those. It's actually extremely easy to just build a super motor, and the drag portion would be extremely boring. I get bored with the beta all the time purely because I have no competition and especially no objective. The tycoon portion would generate more to do then just build a super car and race it, there will be competitive companies that you must try to out build, different needs and wants by consumers changing how you have to design the vehicle, and progressive development in how your company runs. The tycoon is, too me, the most core portion of the game. Without the tycoon portion, the game would just be what this beta is and a drag strip which I would be very disappointed that I purchased it.

I think that even you must admit that you've already built a crazy, insane engine that would be fantastic for a drag, everyone on here has, but having to put more thought and effort in to what you're building would really make me play this game constantly.
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netnut

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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:55 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

No you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they remove the Tycoon portion. That path has already been promised to customers.

What I'm suggesting is making a relatively easy-to-develop racing mode, to help fuel the much more complex Tycoon mode, and I'm making the argument that such a path would appeal to most (almost all?) existing customers.


Basically, I just think there are more people out there that would want to build and race, than business and build. And considering how little effort is required to do a simplified drag racing mode, it just seems like a shame not to explore that route too.
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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:57 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

I think the main issue with it really is that whilst it would be a somewhat entertaining game mode it'd still take many months to get to a really nice, playable and polished standard, and in that time we could make a fair bit of progress on the tycoon portion instead.

As it is, even the car designer by itself is producing enough sales to get by, and I think the car designer will only improve that :)
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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:00 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

I just think there are more people out there that would want to build and race, than business and build.


And those people are already catered to by loads of other games. By going that route we would be in direct competition with various AAA racing games and people would demand the same level of graphical fidelity.

A dragstrip simulator would bring extremely one-dimensional gameplay... like eecer points out, this has been done on the forums already and would have really simplistic gameplay - it's a one-time fun thing. Also it would attract the wrong people to the game considering where we want and need to take this game. If you then add a tycoon part to it, people would be screaming "why aren't you making a track racing game out of it instead!?". No thanks, that would be pretty horrible, and the extent to which that happens already is just about bearable.

Also, we're doing pretty well money-wise for being an indie, we're getting around and sales are steadily increasing. We don't have to live paycheck to paycheck, which confirms to us that we are on the right path.
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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:32 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

Killrob wrote:And those people are already catered to by loads of other games. By going that route we would be in direct competition with various AAA racing games and people would demand the same level of graphical fidelity.

I'm not sure what "loads" of AAA games you are referring to. Maybe the upcoming "The Crew"? It's the closest I can think of, but it doesn't really qualify, being as arcadey as it is. And Street Legal simply can't compete with the depth you have going on.


Killrob wrote:Also, we're doing pretty well money-wise for being an indie, we're getting around and sales are steadily increasing. We don't have to live paycheck to paycheck, which confirms to us that we are on the right path.

And you say that, but I'm not convinced that you wouldn't be earning considerably more if you had a race mode. :P But ultimately, it's obviously your game, and your decisions.

I am however glad that you seem so confident in being able to do the business aspect of the game properly. I guess I've just seen too many small teams take too many big bites that they couldn't handle, and it has made me a bit pessimistic.
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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

netnut wrote:I am however glad that you seem so confident in being able to do the business aspect of the game properly. I guess I've just seen too many small teams take too many big bites that they couldn't handle, and it has made me a bit pessimistic.


We're pretty experienced at taking off big bites, and these days have a pretty good idea of what kind of work is involved with various things. When we started we used to dreadfully underestimate the time and complexity of developing features, but after doing this project for quite a few years now, I think we have at least some idea of what's doable and what's not :)
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Post Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:47 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

Completely agree that it would change the market that you would be competing in, theres absolutely no way that adding a racing portion of the game would have people focus more on this than GT or Forza. The portion of this game that I think we all love is the idea of building and designing the vehicles we love and running a company around that. I much rather have the game simulate the development of Ford and how the company was made then have it simulate how Ford built its race cars.
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netnut

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Post Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 20/5/

eecer wrote:theres absolutely no way that adding a racing portion of the game would have people focus more on this than GT or Forza.

Nah man. These are *completely* different markets. With or without any sort of "racing" or "straight line performance visualizations" as I'd rather call it. :P

If they were one and the same, then games like Street Legal (which was always a pretty sub-par game, quality wise) never would have gained its cult following, because really, the driving mechanics in it were pretty terrible, to say the least, and the graphics too.
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Post Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Game at Launch, What is in? What is Out? - Updated 08/20

Just updated this post with stuff that will be in the upcoming update. The OP is very much incomplete though, I noticed. Needs to be revamped at some point too!
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