Training For the Bavarian Rallye

[Kubboz]

Though, as Martin has told me, wings can be replaced by lips (but not the other way around), so you can have 4 lips and no wings actually.Too bad Martin has told me AFTER I've updated my model.

[Reaper392]

Just out of interest, is this bug likely to be fixed in the not too distant future, or will we have to wait for the next big update?

I'm kind of glad the time was set with an exploit though, because otherwise it would have meant that I had a seriously slow car compared to everyone else

[OCAdam]

My times only have dropped between a few tenths to maybe 2 seconds per stage, depending on what kind of stage it was.

[Killrob]

Just out of interest, is this bug likely to be fixed in the not too distant future, or will we have to wait for the next big update?
I'm kind of glad the time was set with an exploit though, because otherwise it would have meant that I had a seriously slow car compared to everyone else

It will be fixed in the next big update, because it doesn't affect normal gameplay very much. Cars with 420 wings aren't that common. The downforce model being broken isn't really visible either because there's no downforce graph anymore.

[Stryfe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28video_gaming%29

It is breaking the game. The devs already confirmed and fixed the glitch in closed beta (see latest youtube video). It is unfair to use a broken system to gain an advantage. You were not a bit suspicious that such a number of wings is a bit unrealistic and that there might be something broken? To be honest, it is a bit ridiculous to call it a "technical advantage" and "advanced aerodynamic techniques".

If I knew of that bug before, I would have forbidden more wings immediately. You guys knew that the system was broken for a few days now and there was no bug report or at least a question if aero is working as it should.

No one will be disqualified when he used that bug accidentally or on purpose, but the cars cannot be accepted. Everyone who used the bug will be able to send in another car.

I watched the youtube video you referenced and what's said is that the downforce calculation is what's bugged, not the ability to place multiple aero devices. There's no mention that they don't mean for you to be able to place more than two wings or two lips. So if you want to ban the use of the bug you'd have to ban the use of all downforce generating devices. Anyone who submitted a car with even a single wing or lip on it is using the bugged downforce calculation.

[Killrob]

I watched the youtube video you referenced and what's said is that the downforce calculation is what's bugged, not the ability to place multiple aero devices. There's no mention that they don't mean for you to be able to place more than two wings or two lips. So if you want to ban the use of the bug you'd have to ban the use of all downforce generating devices. Anyone who submitted a car with even a single wing or lip on it is using the bugged downforce calculation.

Not very reasonable to have 70 entries rebuilt - 2 lips and 2 wings are not really game breaking considering most people went with some downforce fixtures and used them as intended.

[SirStonelouse]

I watched the youtube video you referenced and what's said is that the downforce calculation is what's bugged, not the ability to place multiple aero devices. There's no mention that they don't mean for you to be able to place more than two wings or two lips. So if you want to ban the use of the bug you'd have to ban the use of all downforce generating devices. Anyone who submitted a car with even a single wing or lip on it is using the bugged downforce calculation.

from what i understand the exploit works in such a way that when you have tons of wings at a low drag setting, you still get lots of downforce without a lot of drag.
while if you have only one or two wings at a low drag setting, you get low drag, but also not a lot of downforce.

[Stryfe]

I watched the youtube video you referenced and what's said is that the downforce calculation is what's bugged, not the ability to place multiple aero devices. There's no mention that they don't mean for you to be able to place more than two wings or two lips. So if you want to ban the use of the bug you'd have to ban the use of all downforce generating devices. Anyone who submitted a car with even a single wing or lip on it is using the bugged downforce calculation.

Not very reasonable to have 70 entries rebuilt - 2 lips and 2 wings are not really game breaking considering most people went with some downforce fixtures and used them as intended.

Then we're talking about an arbitrary change of rules more than halfway through a competition. Why not 1 wing and 1 lip? 2 lips and 1 wing? 1 lip and 3 wings? And so on.
I'd say it's reasonable to change the rules to prevent the use of a bug. But to arbitrarily pick a number for how much you can use the bug just leads to an advantage for some who happened to pick the right number in the first place and a disadvantage for others who have to throw away hours of calibration work as the deadline for submissions approaches.

[Der Bayer]

There's a difference between the downforce distribution bug and the imbalance caused by multiple downforce parts. The downforce distribution bug just does not penalise downforce on the axle further away from the part. So the single aero part is too strong in general. This is the same for everyone. No one gains or loses anything compared to the other players. Therefore it is acceptable to use the parts.

The use of multiple aero parts can be exploited. You have to set the car up in a way which is not obvious for the normal player, totally unrealistic and imbalanced. By using this bug you gain an advantage over other players. I went for 2 wings and 2 lips because that reduces the number of invalid cars to a minimum. Most of the people who have to build again exploited the bug. Few fall accidentally into that group, I'm afraid.

Personally, I would have liked to ban the use of aero parts after I noticed the exploit and the other bug. But that would have meant that everyone (more than 40 people or 70 entries) would have to build another car, I would have to check them all again, I would have to test them all again. And my motivation hosting this challenge has already dropped significantly seeing how serious some people take it, how much time it takes to deal with various issues you couldn't even think of before starting the challenge and how hard it is to make a challenge suitable for the ones with less time who cannot spend hours tweaking the shit out of their cars. I'm not willing to do a complete reset of the challenge, that could only happen without me. It will very probably be the last BRC for a longer time anyway, if not ever.

[Killrob]

Then we're talking about an arbitrary change of rules more than halfway through a competition. Why not 1 wing and 1 lip? 2 lips and 1 wing? 1 lip and 3 wings? And so on.
I'd say it's reasonable to change the rules to prevent the use of a bug. But to arbitrarily pick a number for how much you can use the bug just leads to an advantage for some who happened to pick the right number in the first place and a disadvantage for others who have to throw away hours of calibration work as the deadline for submissions approaches.

If you knew just how much your ignorant whining is draining the energy of the people working their asses off to make this the best experience possible despite unforeseen problems. It is saddening to see how a minority (which you are part of) can destroy the fun of interacting with the community. Get a thick skin? Doesn't help, death by a thousand small cuts.
The chosen solution definitely was the least of all evils.

[Stryfe]

If you knew just how much your ignorant whining is draining the energy of the people working their asses off to make this the best experience possible despite unforeseen problems. It is saddening to see how a minority (which you are part of) can destroy the fun of interacting with the community. Get a thick skin? Doesn't help, death by a thousand small cuts.
The chosen solution definitely was the least of all evils.

Seriously? My two short posts questioning the nature of the change in rules is ignorant whining and destroying the fun of interacting with the community?

Look at my post count, including this one it's now 12. I've had the game since the fall and I've been playing it off and on by myself since then. It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that I thought I'd come check out the forum and see if there was a community that would keep me interested in continuing to play the game. If this is the attitude you take towards new people joining the community you aren't going to have much of a community to interact with.

[SeriousSimon]

Woah.. maybe we move a few gears down? This high-geared acceleration is wearing my tyres out..

Let us first and foremost not forget, that the game is far away from being finished. We have to thank only the commitment of everyone involved with the Development (Game AND Forum) that we are even able to participate in such a fun event.
Now, as far as I know, in an unfnished game, some things can occur at any time, that nobody knew about or could have foreseen.
Clearly this issue falls into that category, I myself remember seeing somewhere in this Forum a posting that mentioned the use of several wings on top of each other, but I doubt anyone took it very seriously.

As for your posting, Stryfe, you may have a point that this issue could have been adressed or the rules concerning aerodynamics could have been set beforehand. Still, cut the guys some slack, imagine how much time went into checking all the entries alone! We're all human beings here and at some point you just have enough. I can understand DerBayer for being at this point, and I am sad to hear that he lost his motivation for now.

We must learn from this (I sound like Schumacher now lol), maybe we just let this event go on and for the next time, we know which additional rules should be mentioned.
There are already now many racing events and I personally love the idea of building and developing a car yourself, just that, the result doesn't matter so much. There will always be people who can go faster, get more hp and so on.

Last but not least, we could consider that once an event has been declared open, to limit the amount of information that each player can give about their testing process. It needlesly takes away from the excitement where you will end up. Some data, even hp can be mentioned, but it should be forbidden to post the times of the first stage here in the forum. This will lead only to confusion among those who are a lot slower. Or we set a special training stage for that, to be able to compare.

[Jakgoe]

If you knew just how much your ignorant whining is draining the energy of the people working their asses off to make this the best experience possible despite unforeseen problems. It is saddening to see how a minority (which you are part of) can destroy the fun of interacting with the community. Get a thick skin? Doesn't help, death by a thousand small cuts.
The chosen solution definitely was the least of all evils.

Seriously? My two short posts questioning the nature of the change in rules is ignorant whining and destroying the fun of interacting with the community?

Look at my post count, including this one it's now 12. I've had the game since the fall and I've been playing it off and on by myself since then. It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that I thought I'd come check out the forum and see if there was a community that would keep me interested in continuing to play the game. If this is the attitude you take towards new people joining the community you aren't going to have much of a community to interact with.

I didn't intend to post anymore in this thread, but this has made me.
Killrob,
This, along with your insensitive joke about the Holocaust, is honestly one of the meanest things I have seen you say on the forums. While you do help stop people who are trolling/spamming/generally being a nuisance, this is a bit too far. I know Stryfe quite well outside of the game and forums, and he is one of the nicest people I know, and most certainly not an "ignorant whiner", nor a "fun destroyer." If you look over his posts, you would come to the realization that his logic is flawless, and that he raises very good points. What is this "minority that you speak of? Is it the group of troller/spammers/nuisances? If it is, Stryfe certainly does not belong in it.

[Daffyflyer]

Don't lose sight of the fact that Der Bayer runs these events purely because he wants to, and is doing his best to make sure that they work well even in the face of various game breaking bugs. Everyone just take a breath and chill, yo.

[07CobaltGirl]

I have no problem resubmitting my car. I saw on another thread this was being done, and thought it was acceptable. I now know it is not, and that is fine. Both of my entries are now re-submitted. I apologize to Der Bayer for making him now have to check my cars twice, but also appreciate his willingness to do so! At the end of the day, this is a game, and only a game. It's primary purpose is to be FUN. Now, lets all get back to having some fun around here!