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Green Hell Lap Times

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07CobaltGirl

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:15 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Razyx wrote:I've been thinking (a bit) on the rules about production cars:

I see no problem on the next:

- fuel type 98Ron max.
- no semi slicks
- no race intake
- no race exhaust (race headers)
- when available, you have to use every muffler option
- chassis material cannot be carbon fibre
- no carbon ceramic brakes

and a few 'debatable' rules:

- weight/power ratio lower than 2 (i.e. 1400kg / 700cv or so, would not be allowed)
- undertray cannot be set on downforce configuration
- maybe a limit on rim diameter (20"?)


I'm not sure why this is even a discussion. The above rules are fine, except for mufflers and wheels. Production cars should have mufflers, but should not be specified which ones or how many. One muffler (plus cat if applicable) should be sufficient to meet road legal requirements in most places. AFAIK, at least where I live, there are no real rules on how big a wheel can be. I see offroading trucks all over the place which could easily drive right over a Chevy Caprice without even noticing it, and they're not getting tickets over it. The only rule they must follow is minimum bumper heights cannot exceed X inches above the road surface.

The only debatable ones are P/W and tire compounds. Power/Weight would be good at 2.0. Realistically, it can't really function on a street above that (and above 1.0 is actually a good argument). Tire compounds are only debatable because drag radials are street legal, at least here in the US. Just don't have an accident on them, or they will be auto-faulted for the incident (cops don't really like them much on street cars).

Downforce undertray should not be allowed on production. Limited downforce trays are fine, as many cars use them already...for hypermiling efficiency.

I personally think 98RON (93AKI) should not be allowed, but only because here in the US it is near impossible to find unless you are near a raceway or dragstrip. 95RON (91AKI) is common Premium fuel in the US. The rest of the world is obviously not so stingy with the octane, however. This does not take into consideration Ethanol blended fuels. E85 is still quite hard to find, even in the US, and has an AKI rating of 94-97. At least in the SouthEastern US where I live. Again, Ethanol blends are much more common in other parts of the world....like Brazil.

You could also consider production numbers to determine a production vehicle, although it would be tough right now without a functional tycoon aspect in the game. For racing in the US, it is usually considered a production vehicle if it is produced in numbers greater than 500 units, for SCCA regulations. Anything lower is considered a racing/prototype vehicle. It could be simulated with a production cost aspect, or even a production cost PLUS production units cost (valued at a fixed number per unit), but some companies have deep pockets and a $100,000+ production cost wouldn't bother them a bit.
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Post Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:34 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

07CobaltGirl wrote:I'm not sure why this is even a discussion.


Part of the reason is, as you point out later in your post, that some points will always be in contention, not least due to the international nature of this forum and thus the need to compromise.

For example, in pretty much any place in Australia that has a petrol station, and this includes rural, inland, and remote areas, you will be relatively confident of finding 98RON. That being said, there are only a very small handful of cars that would ostensibly demand 98RON (e.g. perhaps the Impreza 22B, which is a rare model in itself). I imagine that the most rarefied of super and hypercars will also pretty much require 98RON too.

Furthermore, semi-slicks are also plenty road legal in Australia but don't expect insurers or cops to rule in your favour if you have a bingle with them on!

That being said, I guess we have to put a limit somewhere and most of Razyx's rules are already plenty acceptable for capturing the 'spirit' of what should be included. This will be the list I suggest:

  • Fuel type 95RON max
  • No semi-slicks
  • No race intake
  • No race exhaust
  • At least one muffler of any kind
  • No downforce undertray
  • Minimum ride height 100mm
The 100mm comes from my local guidelines, feel free to come forward with your own values as this obviously may vary. I feel there should also be a minimum reliability figure as in the previous 'production' board, there were cars with 0.1 reliability, which clearly doesn't compute.

I've not included the limitations about the brake pads as they're already a regular (and optional) feature on sports cars, notably e.g. Porsche will offer them as an option across most of their range. I've also not included the limitation about carbon fiber chassis as a couple of production car companies make cars this way... but the relevance of that in the broader market and thus the appropriateness of this rule is debatable. I would still like to see some kind of class segregation system based on the components a car uses, or even their production costs.

In short, I'm still not sure.
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07CobaltGirl

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:03 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

I find these limitations for production cars completely reasonable! 100mm from the factory is really quite low, at 3.9". Cars lower than this will have trouble with parking lots, city streets and even some highways. My car is sitting about 110mm and lowered 2.5" (63mm for anyone who isn't American), which puts its factory ride height at roughly 175mm, but it's hardly a sports car from the factory. I just made it into one. ;)

I also agree on a reliability aspect. Production cars are meant to be driven dailly, or at least regularly, so reliability has to be part of the equation. I completely failed to mention this in my previous post.... :oops: Any respectable production vehicle should be able to see 100k miles (160k kilometers) of duty before a major failure occurs. Of course, given the number of manufacturer recalls in recent years, clearly this isn't a belief of those who make cars. ;)

As for classes...that gets tough. No matter how you try to divide the cars, you'll run into somebody (maybe even me!) who disagrees with something. It certainly does make for a more level playing field, however. Good luck with it. :)
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Razyx

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Post Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Interesting knowing more details about 'markets' other than the european. Here in Spain, and I guess overall in Europe, there's no problem finding 98RON. It's a good way, as any other one, to start with some restriction.

strop wrote:
  • Fuel type 95RON max
  • No semi-slicks
  • No race intake
  • No race exhaust
  • At least one muffler of any kind
  • No downforce undertray
  • Minimum ride height 100mm

No problem with those rules.

strop wrote:[...] I would still like to see some kind of class segregation system based on the components a car uses, or even their production costs.

In short, I'm still not sure.

I also would like.
I guess, and as you both have suggested, maybe we should play or include some limits on production units, reliability and, as a daily cars, with service costs..(and some components) to establish the (different) categories.
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Nirat

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Post Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:10 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

I don't know why I can pm you with jpeg or rar file so I will post my time here
K's Work's present Noble-PII GT1 Prototype race car
Attachments
PII-GT1 Gren.jpg
PII-GT1 Gren.jpg (566.98 KiB) Viewed 37462 times
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Post Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:49 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Normally I'd ask for PM, but as all the stats are here and the race category is still open, I'll put that time up. Good one!
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RoyalStig

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Post Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:33 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

I would PM but mine are taking about 3-4 hours to send so here goes:
To compete with the Ford Supervan, The GRIFFIN CAR-GO! BERWI XRSS (Prototype class if you hadn't guessed :D )

2015-08-11_00012.jpg
2015-08-11_00012.jpg (374.59 KiB) Viewed 37381 times

2015-08-11_00011.jpg
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Last edited by RoyalStig on Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Name of Car Company: Griffin Automotive
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BassixDnB

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Post Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:36 pm

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Could I post the time my 1985 Group B rally hatch gets?
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strop

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Post Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:08 pm

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Absolutely! But PM it to me if you could, so the thread doesn't clutter up.
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Matchstick101

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Post Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:25 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

will you be taking times for prototype group C cars from the 80's early 90's?
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strop

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Post Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:43 pm

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Yep, right now I'll take anything.

Beware, new balancing coming through soon so leaderboard will have to start from scratch! Once I'm confident no further changes are forthcoming I'll make some proper classes.
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Matchstick101

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Post Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:06 pm

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

strop wrote:Yep, right now I'll take anything.

Beware, new balancing coming through soon so leaderboard will have to start from scratch! Once I'm confident no further changes are forthcoming I'll make some proper classes.


sweet, I can't wait to see your new set of rules and classes.
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TheTom

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Post Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:18 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Here's the AMW Hydra's time, with exactly the same setup as in the Super Go Karts tournament:

Image
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nialloftara

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Post Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:30 pm

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Damn, that's 4 tenths faster than my rapier...
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Nirat

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Post Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:03 am

Re: Green Hell Lap Times

Noble PII GT-1S
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