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Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

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Vri404

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:17 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

strop wrote:In automation terms, I have a car that without driving aids has a drivability of 0.

With all the driving aids this value rises to 1.0.

I'd say that is a situation where it is done right :P


*Claps*
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PottoGadd

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:33 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

squidhead wrote:
PottoGadd wrote:It's still gonna be slow as balls without TC isn't it? So the F1 still reigns supreme as king of the supercars.


You certainly have been living under a rock since 1994.

Mate, the reason the F1 is the king is because it was ahead of it's time, and it still holds a 25 year old world record as the fastest natural car, and it had the fastest topspeed untill the S7 and Veyron came out in 2005. The F1 is pretty much the first hyper car, and it still beats modern cars, it has honor and dignity, the same can't be said about the Veyron. It also dominated in F1.
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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:58 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

PottoGadd wrote:You certainly have been living under a rock since 1994.

Mate, the reason the F1 is the king is because it was ahead of it's time, and it still holds a 25 year old world record as the fastest natural car, and it had the fastest topspeed untill the S7 and Veyron came out in 2005. The F1 is pretty much the first hyper car, and it still beats modern cars, it has honor and dignity, the same can't be said about the Veyron. It also dominated in F1.[/quote]

Sigh... Ok, lets' unravel this twisted yarnball.

Define "ahead of it's time". It has a Naturally aspirated v12 engine, which let's be honest, is nothing new by the early 90's. It's simply RWD, which also brings nothing to the table. It's got carbon fiber, which is also been in use in supercars before it. The "omg it holds a record for a naturally aspirated car", well a 1970 Porsche 917LH holds the fastest average speed record at Le Mans still. This means absolutely nothing since the track has been changed since then. Same with the McLaren - the tech has moved on to turbocharging. It's the last of it's era, there's only that. If anything, it's just a car specifically designed to go fast in a straight line, something a LOT of people are hating the Veyron for. To go around the corners proper it needed serious aero help, hence LM, GT sporting aero that made it slower in the top speed department.

The fact that "only s7 and veyron managed to beat it's top speed" is actually due to the fact that nobody cared to. Yes, nobody needed to build a car that can do 400kph, because marketing departments are not filled with idiots. Veyron brought about the era of "top speed for bragging rights even if we lose money on each we sell" and that was all because Mr. Piech likes to run his mouth too much (If you got no idea what I'm referring to, then you did not do your research of the Veryron beyond the basic spec sheet reading). No sane company would see this as a viable marketing strategy, and the likes of Hennessey and Saleen are just doing it to get some spotlight to their companies, and the way they can do so is by beating a Veyron. As in "Nobody STILL needs or actually wants to build cars that would beat the Maccas top speed. They are not required by the market".

The "honour and dignity". Well, tell me about all this dignity, mid-positioned, 3 abreast, look at my doors, i have gold lined engine bay McLaren specialists. And do not start about "gold is the best heat insulator" since it failed the heat test in a P1. If you want actual dignified supercar you're going to go a year earlier and see a Jag XJ220. Simple design, classic lines, cheap bits here and there, simplistic interior, v6 turbo out of racecar and that's all there is to it. So no, it is anything BUT dignified, it's just as shouty and weird as the rest of them. Veyron actually DOES have dignity, as it is just engineered to be what it needs to be. There is no tetra-mega-helix-wacko door hinges as a Koenigsegg does, there's no gimmicky driver positioning, there isn't shouty design features, it's just plain and simple on the outside and massive engineering on the inside lined with the best quality interior you could get. It came, it trampled the opposition as the best CAR of all hypercars, and was done with it.

P.S: I do hope you know that McLaren F1 supercar has absolutely nothing to do with a McLaren F1 team. As a bare minimum it was not used in F1, so I do not know where you got that info from.
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strop

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:21 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

I'm just that little imp that floats over people's shoulder, making little whispers here and there in this very shouty debate... but what the fuck is a "dignified car"? xD

As much as I don't consider the old Top Gear as a reliable source of information so much as a very weighty opinion, they did have a point when they said that supercars seemingly had their madness tempered in the noughties. Consider the hype versus reality of the Porsche Carrera GT (that powerplant. That output. That supposed top speed, wait, so slow?). And then consider the fact that it is still a razor sharp beast that will send you through the Pearly Gates backwards, on fire, as it did the late Walker and his friend Rodas... which only goes to show that there's many metrics afoot when considering just what makes a supercar's status.
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TurboJ

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:31 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

In my opinion the best metric to evaluate a supercar's success is very simple: desirability.

Granted, it may not be easy to measure, but you could do a global poll among automotive journalists or something like that.
Pure performance or an impressive tech sheet do not guarantee desirability. There must be gorgeous styling, an alluring brand image
and a strong personality. A great engine sound, an inviting cockpit and all that. It's not about who's fastest, it's about whose car you
would actually buy if you had gazillion monies.
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strop

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:53 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

I've got one response to that: desirability is not a metric. It has very little in the way of measure, and that is why we have such amusing arguments ;)

For example I cannot tell you how many times I have thoroughly disagreed with The Cool Wall... yet undeniably the opinions of those who run it have actually shaped the fates of entire companies.
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TurboJ

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:17 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

You can measure desirability. That's a basic psychological measurement. You can do it by means of questionnaires and polls or you can
even conduct a "lab" experiment where you measure brain activity while showing pictures of different designs. They do research
like this every day at the uni where I used to study this stuff. It's of course always going to be subjective, but how can you ever rate cars without a subjective element?

The cool wall is not scientific of course. Subjective CAN be scientific once you have enough of a population to measure stuff with. Not with a population of 3 journalists obviously :)
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strop

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Let me rephrase then. Sure, we can 'measure' desirability, but just how good/useful a measure is any of it?

Far be it from my intention* to start a shit fight about scientific validity, but I can't help but comment that surely the jury is still out over whether studies in the field of psychology are, erm, for the most part reproducible? :lol: I mean there was that paper about how they weren't, and now there's a counter paper that says that paper was wrong...

* Okay, maybe I'm lying and I'm deliberately stirring the pot with tenuously related assertions :P Keep in mind that, as a medical doctor, I'm well aware of the pitfalls of the studies undertaken within my own field of industry, so it's not like I'm saying that other fields are necessarily any better...
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TurboJ

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:00 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

A fair point. But then we could of course say that any science that includes human subjects will immediately lose all validity. And then we will be arguing more about whether or not we CAN actually come to a good conclusion or whether it will all remain just a philosophical debate :) My point about the "desirability" metric is that we can in fact determine which cars are most desirable to most people. And since the same question is also very personal for each individual, the results of such measurements may be entirely irrelevant if they don't meet with any particular individuals personal views.

But since this is Automation and we're all playing car manufacturers, a "desirability" metric can be a very useful one. If we know the parameters that together make the most desirable supercar for most people and we were to, for example, implement those parameters on our own supercar design, chances are the general public will like the car more than they did if we completely ignore such knowledge of the general public's likes and dislikes.

Or we could do what I do, and I presume most people do, and just build a car I personally like. But then I will post the car on this forum and try to present it as well as I can in hopes that other people will like it too and they will tell me nice things about the design...

But on the IRL supercars I guess it's all down to whether we speak personal preference or general preference. I think the healthier approach would be to simple say "I like this car a lot BECAUSE...." rather than try to prove by numbers or technological details which car is better than which. Because if we're honest, supercars and hypercars are all about emotions. And it's bound to be personal to a great extent. If we're just playing the childish (or politician-like) game of "mine is better than yours because blah blah" we're just arguing for the sake of argument. And then it will, at best, become a philosophical debate with no real outcome.

So in terms of desirability I'll just share a couple examples about my personal views:

-I like Bugatti EB110 more than Ferrari F40 because it's more ambitious yet it doesn't blow it.
-I like Vector W2 because to me it's the most aggressive wedge shape out there and it comes with a huge twin turbo engine.
-I don't like the Bugatti Veyron because it's too polished in execution yet still clumsy and blunt at the same time.

Anyone care to share their views based on this approach? :P
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strop

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

TurboJ wrote:But then we could of course say that any science that includes human subjects will immediately lose all validity.


To nitpick: I wouldn't go so far as to say that. After all, if we are mindful with what it is we are attempting to quantify and how, and we pay due attention to the methods by which we derive our assessment of the reliability and power of a study, then we can establish a reasonable status of validity of studies but only for ones based on tangible, reproducible observations. Mortality is the clearest measure we have. Morbidity, to an extent, though the further you get away from such binary outcomes such as dead/alive, the murkier it does get.

Anyway, without getting into it too much, not least because a) it's not directly relevant to this forum b) I have zero formal background in psychology so most of my thoughts come from other disciplines, I would actually like to think that behaviours of individuals and in populations can be modelled should one use sensible premises on which to establish the drivers of our behaviour (noting that I'm not making any arguments in favour of pure determinism or even, to extrapolate, a physical reductionist interpretation of consciousness). The corollary to that is that I do think that there is plenty of scope for psychology as a field to continue to describe our behaviours (only exactly what that scope is, and how we assess it by our standard scientific yardsticks, becomes the devil in the details).

If I didn't believe in any of that, after all, I would have completely disregarded anything and everything about the Markets tab in Automation, and possibly gone so far as to deny that there was any use in dividing the automotive market into discrete or distinct markets with distinct consumer groups. In fact one would wonder why I'd even bother with a game like Automation in the first place given its vision as stated from the get go! Even by anecdotal observation, this is absurd, so my earlier post was at least in part playing Devil's advocate. In fact I'm very interested in the relationship between the Automation metric and our personal takes on how desirable a car is, hence the existence of The Car Shopping Round.

More importantly, IMHO the reason why the supercar market is so hotly debated with so many differing opinions is due to a) the premise of a supercar and b) the rarefied sample space. Supercars are, I think you inferred already, by definition distinctive, unique, outlandish, ephemeral, out of this world, and assessments are therefore governed by the world of emotion and evocation. Unlike say, the city or family segments, they do relate significantly less strongly to our common, utilitarian requirements, and are also far less affordable, so we don't have a pool of experience of millions of units over decades to compare a Mazda3 to a Toyota Corolla. We probably don't even have a forum user who has actually driven or ridden in most of the supercars we're talking about. It's also worth noting that I do think the calculations regarding market competitiveness in Hypercar, Supercar etc. etc. are less useful than in most other segments, again for the same reasons.

With that in mind, the simple truth is that heated arguments about which supercar is better than another is mainly hot air, blown directly from your ass. Now, I'm a flatulent guy who enjoys a good toot now and then, but everybody would do well to remember not to stink up the room too much :P
Last edited by strop on Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sillyworld

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

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strop

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Post Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:15 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

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PottoGadd

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Post Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:46 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Well, I suppose I can see it from others perspective, and not be all ''kill those who disagree'' mentality, and I do think now that there is no best car. Altough the F1 dominated in Lemans, I got those two confused. Sorry for being immature before.
Last edited by PottoGadd on Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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strop

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Post Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:59 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Your post is fine, but the quoting tags derped, so they're misattributed. In addition when you do edit the post, can you snip most of it? The posts referenced are still on the same page so it's desirable not to repost the entire wall of text, cheers.
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Post Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:09 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Regardless of "purity", I'm just not interested in the Bugatti. Or most any modern supercars. Or supercars at all. But clearly, they do have a target audience that loves them. So, I can't fault it's existence. So, I guess until something interesting does come along, I'll be in Automation, trying to build something capable of tackling the world race.
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