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Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

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squidhead

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Post Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

I am also fairly certain that having no TC does not equal a "supreme king of supercars" these days.
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SkylineFTW97

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Post Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:12 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

As much as I loathe traction control, I can't deny that.
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DoctorNarfy

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Post Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:16 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

A bit off topic, but why do so many people loathe traction control? Not everybody is a pro driver. The majority of us need a little help in order to enjoy a car in it's entirety, particularly with fast cars. Plus, on advanced cars like the Ford Focus RS and the Mclaren MP4-12c, traction control can even enhance the driving experience.
Last edited by DoctorNarfy on Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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squidhead

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Post Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:18 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Well to really think about it. EVERYTHING hypercars use makes it into the production cars for the people eventually. Think Porsche 959, it's AWD system was revolutionary, and soon enough it found it's way into a supercar - Skyline R32 GTR. In 10 years we saw it in a sportscar - Lancer Evo, and these days even Nissan Juke has one. So having "no traction control is pure kind of supercars" is simply foolish. If they were as simple to build as a go-kart, then nobody would ever benefit from it.
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SkylineFTW97

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Post Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:49 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

DoctorNarfy wrote:A bit off topic, but why do so many people loathe traction control? Not everybody is a pro driver. The majority of us need a little help in order to enjoy a car in it's entirety, particularly with fast cars. Plus, on advanced cars like the Ford Focus RS and the Mclaren MP4-12c, traction control can even enhance the driving experience.

I know, however, I just don't like the idea of any sort of electronics assisting or interfering directly with my driving (something like ABS is ok with me), whether it be for better or worse. Ultimately, I don't care if I need help or not. I'd much rather learn proper car control on my own, even if it is more risky.
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squidhead

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Post Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:54 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Well you should fly an EuroFighter jet with all it's assists off. See how far that takes you. All the noobs who can't fly (A.K.A. the military jet firghter pilots) use assists in jets these days, you'd get a ton more enjoyment, definetly.

Also what's the double standard with ABS? You can work your way on throttle control, but can't do the exact same movement with the exact same foot on another pedal?
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strop

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Post Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Well, technically, it would be difficult to piston your foot like fifty times per second :P Trail-braking is a similar principle but still rather different in practice.

But that's a side point. You can be as purist as you like, and that's fine. You can make any kind of assertion as to what you think is the ultimate supercar, because that's highly subjective and most of the fun in argument, unless you take yourself way too seriously in which case you really need to go check yourself before you wreck yourself. But to say the cars of yesteryear were more capable than now, that's objectively wrong and I hope nobody is asserting such.
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DoctorNarfy

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Post Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

I also think that older cars are only pure from a relative modern standpoint. Think about this, if Dual clutch transmissions and Electric hybrid powertrains where a proven technology by the time the first generation Acura NSX came out, would Honda have used them? Sure, creating a pure sportscar is something they keep in mind, but Mclaren claims to have also kept it in mind when developing the P1, which by all Porsche 911 for life purists would claim has the 3 strikes of pure sports car no's, turbos, auto gearbox, and Hybrid powertrains. To me at least, you have to judge a car based on the era it was built in to determine if keeping the driver to road experience one on one was the most important part. Which would quickly turn down about 90% of what we consider to be "Pure" sports cars by today's standards.

On the topic of Jets, by the way, pilots do need to learn how to fly without assists, because one good EMP, and I'll let you do the math.

Edit: Apparently I was wrong about the assists thing.
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squidhead

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Post Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:55 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

DoctorNarfy wrote:On the topic of Jets, by the way, pilots do need to learn how to fly without assists, because one good EMP, and I'll let you do the math.


They do, I know. But most modern jets are built to be unstable, adding lots to maneuverability, and the electronic aids is what keeps the pilot concentrating on the flight/dogfight/mission, instead of "not plunging to his death thousands of feet below him". The electronic aids in cars in my opinion do the exact same thing, you concentrate on the sensation which the car can deliver instead of battling it all the time. I mean, Hennessey Venom can wheelspin in 5th at over 180mph, while hugely exciting and entertaining, when covering ground at such pace, I'd rather be concentrated on reading the road ahead, leaving the rear wheels to the electronics. A 400hp car with no assists is still very much manageable (M5 e39 for example, with all systems off is still a great car that allows you for all sorts of hoons), but when your power is in excess of 1000, I doubt it's a kitty cat out to play with you, it's a damn lion trying to bite your face off, and that's when you need it to be on a leash.
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SkylineFTW97

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Post Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

I wouldn't fly at all (mostly because my vision is only15/20 at best, even with my glasses on). And I don't usually use ABS either. My first car didn't have it, and I deactivated it on my current car. I just prefer control to electronic oversight.
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Sillyworld

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Post Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:43 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

SkylineFTW97 wrote: And I don't usually use ABS either. My first car didn't have it, and I deactivated it on my current car. I just prefer control to electronic oversight.

That is fine when someone actually knows how to control its car, but most of us (and probably over 90% of car owners) aren't that skilled. My first 2 cars didn't have ABS (the first only had power steering...not even airbags) and locking the wheels on a emergency situation (when some jerk crosses in front of you without even looking ot both sides of the road) it's one of the must frustrating feelings in the world.

I like what Strop said, everyone can have an idea of what a hyper-car is, but facts are facts, and if a car is faster with TC than a other car without it, it is faster (and probably safest). Like a DSC transmission vs a manual gearbox, some might say it is less engaging or that you have less control, but at the end it is faster. But of course, that's my opinion.
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:53 am

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

Having stayed out of this "argument," I feel like I should chime in with some crappy opinion.

If a car with TC is faster than the same car W/O TC then the one with TC is faster. TC is more of a safety feature over a "go faster" feature, but many companies have found their ways to make stupid fast cars using the "limitations" of a traction control. So I don't see TC as a hampering thing, more a helpful, LIFESAVING feature. Similar to ABS.

That's my 2 cents though.
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KA24DE

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:09 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

That thing is hideous O.o

As for the Eurofighter Typhoon... it is wholly incapable of flying without it's stability augmentation systems until it reaches supersonic speeds; which will cause its center of lift to transition to behind its center of gravity rendering it inherently stable. At subsonic speeds the Eurofighter's center of lift is ahead of its center of gravity, and that makes it inherently unstable and it is very unlikely that a human will be able to maintain level flight. Any increase in angle of attack, for example pitching the nose up will further move the center of lift forward and will violently flip the aircraft over unless the augmentation system deflects the canards downward, possibly the elevons as well. There are few modern military aircraft that are capable of non-augmented flight.

My view on stabilty aids on cars is that it has to be done "right". A stability augmentation system should be there to help the driver maintain control over his or her vehicle... not take control out of their hands. This is the critical point of the discussion in my eyes. An anti-lock braking system is a "good" system. It prevents wheel lock-up, and in turn allows you to maintain steering control over your vehicle. It also decreases braking distance; which is always a good thing.

I think most of the hatred of stability augmentation system comes from the fairly primitive ESC systems found on modern cars. They function by applying brakes on individual wheels to prevent excessive slip-angles. They are indeed very disruptive and intrusive, and I don't like that system at all. Here I completely agree with the hatred of it. It is built to be inexpensive and its purpose is simply to prevent a person who does not understand what they are doing from losing the rear end in the most common situations. It will attempt to and usually succeed in preventing you from killing yourself, but in the process it destroys any and all enjoyment from driving the vehicle; even in situations where its activation is simply unwarrented and unnecessary.

Not all stability control systems are like this though. An excellent example is the legendary Nissan Skylines R32, R33, and R34. These cars had progressively more and more advanced forms of stability augmentation. Skylines did things that other cars were simply incapable of doing. They were capable of this only because of their advanced electronics. The Skylines had fully electronically controlled differentials which were capable of sending from 0 to 50% power to the front axle and 0 to 100% of power to a single rear wheel. It also had the rear wheels steer by up to 10 degrees. The computer of the car decided what to do and how to do it... but it wasn't disruptive at all. The system allowed the driver to maintain control of the vehicle at all times. It helped you. No one ever said the Skyline is a boring car to drive. It was exhilarating because of the feeling that you could do anything and get away with it. Even without ever driving one, I can say that I wouldn't feel safer or more in control in any other vehicle than a Skyline because of its well designed electronics.

So my point is this; the stabilty control has to be made in such a way as to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle; and not by preventing the vehicle from ever entering a situation where control can potentially be lost. I do not consider a (reasonable slip-angle) drift to be inherently labeled as a loss of control, and neither did the Skyline.
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squidhead

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

KA24DE wrote:An excellent example is the legendary Nissan Skylines R32, R33, and R34. These cars had progressively more and more advanced forms of stability augmentation. Skylines did things that other cars were simply incapable of doing. They were capable of this only because of their advanced electronics. The Skylines had fully electronically controlled differentials which were capable of sending from 0 to 50% power to the front axle and 0 to 100% of power to a single rear wheel. It also had the rear wheels steer by up to 10 degrees. The computer of the car decided what to do and how to do it... but it wasn't disruptive at all. The system allowed the driver to maintain control of the vehicle at all times. It helped you. No one ever said the Skyline is a boring car to drive.


You are actually overselling it. I like the things, allright, but you are actually raising it to god status. If you wish to do so - recap the R32 racing wins, not just list things that aren't very accurate.
Cars were capable of doing so before the R32. R32 had a mechanical rear diff, while yes 33 and 34 went electronical. The work of the electronic assists was not disruptive TO A DEGREE, as in you could maintain a bit of a hoon, but going overboard prompted the car to return you to a normal driving mode with the front pointing where you were going. And yes, yes there were people who tested the thing and stated that it was boring. In an OLD top gear segment, before the stooges an array of cars was given a thrashing and the fun factor was decided by 3 presenters, the R33 GT-R was shot down instantly, even though it was 2nd fastest.
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strop

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Post Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:03 pm

Re: Holy F*cking shit the Bugatti Chiron!

In automation terms, I have a car that without driving aids has a drivability of 0.

With all the driving aids this value rises to 1.0.

I'd say that is a situation where it is done right :P
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