VW Emissions scandal

[UltimateBMWfan]

So, what are your opinions, views, suggestions, and jokes about the VW Emissions scandal?

For me, it's obviously a big dent into the economy and such a large and iconic company, plus, Audi's and Skoda's are also affected. I see a wealth of VW's every day, and to read that they're violating emissions laws willingly is a bit sad to be honest. And I also didn't see it coming from such a large company like VW.

However, it seems like the press are really getting a field day on this, suddenly Mercs and BMW's and a multitude of different cars are supposedly violating emissions and fuel economy rules and regulations. Specifically, AutoBILD published an article on how a BMW X3 also violated emissions, they've since clarified the article. There are a few reasons on why BMW and other carmakers' situations are different from VW, but I'll let you guys research that. Anyways, my opinion on it is that press like AutoBILD really should be punished for false titles and statements. Their article that earned them publicity dropped BMW shares by more than 6%. I don't think AutoBILD and other press/news companies should be able to get away with irresponsibly damaging other companies' reputations, but they have done for a long time now.

[adamd]

It's annoying but it's right that they check everyone else. The current known difference as you say is that VW were outright cheating, whereas most manufacturers are manipulative. With other stuff, at least the emissions gear is (probably) working all the time, even in the real world, rather than detecting when it's tested and turning off.

[nialloftara]

The same people that found the VW cheat tested a BMW x5 with the v6 engine and found it was fine. I don't know about the x3 but the main issue was VW not adding the urea or Diesel exhaust fluid injection system to the 2.0TDI basically all other diesel engines, at least here in the US, have that system and has had it since 2010. I see VW getting hit hard for this but honestly they are too big even for this to take them out. There will be new chiefs and a new focus but I'd say by next year their sales numbers will be back up.

[Packbat]

Honestly, the best suggestion I've heard is to force automakers to open-source their ECUs. That I feel would help address three problems simultaneously: first, any company which writes code to defeat emissions tests would be much more likely to be caught; second, any company which writes bad code - as happened at Toyota, causing unexpected acceleration incidents - would suffer for it immediately, rather than after people get injured or killed from it; and third, it would allow mechanics and tuners to experiment with modifications of code, possibly finding new improvements that the whole industry would ultimately benefit from.

[Leonardo9613]

I have a couple of unpopular views on this.

First, I think that VW were genius. They actually made their cars recognize that they were being tested, by using a plethora of different sensors, and they made it so the engines would perform well for the customer and do the tests, thus saving the need for the expensive Adblue urea stuff, that would cost about 300 euros per car, which impacts more on the price of a VW than a BMW, for example. Also, 10-40 times more NOx is almost irrelevant considering how much more pollution any 90s truck makes, so it isn't the end of the world regarding the environment either.

Secondly, I bet that just about every company has some kind of cheat device or specifically tuned mode just to do well on emissions and economy tests. Like in europe, where the CO2 emissions regulate taxes in a lot of countries, the cars are engineered in such a way that they will do the testing routine just right and emit 99 g/km on them, by means of longer gears, special power killing eco buttons, flat spots on engine delivery where the car goes back to a leaner fuel mode for a few hundred rpm. Those too are cheating devices, that mean that people will emit more carbon than they thought their cars would and they would end up consuming more fuel than they were lead to believe, with differences of up to 50% on some Mercedes cars and Fiat Multiairs. The fuel consumption thing is valid only for europe, because the EPA test for mileage is a lot more representative of the real world and rigging it has caused already a big fine to Hyundai-Kia.

[Speedemon]

I don't want to be mean or anything but here is a picture I made.

[NormanVauxhall]

My very personal point of view (probably not realistic and unpopular) is: Diesel aren't sporty engines.
They have treated like that in Europe since mid 90's and seems they have hit the limit (in order to fulfill the laws restrictions).
If they are able to fulfill the requirements while on the test bench, they should be able to do it for all the time; but they probably have to kill some performance as drawback. Probably it's time to see Diesel shifting back to a lower powered and lower consumption choice.
Did you buy diesel for performance? You bet on the wrong horse.

[Leonardo9613]

Normanvauxhall, the problem is that the lower NOx emissions, on all cars, usually come with a loss in efficiency, which would make the engine lose power and economy at the same time. NOx are produced when the fuel in the cylinder becomes too hot, and start breaking the very stable N2 that is present on the air, so in order to lower the emissions the combustion process is made cooler usually by means of exhaust gas recirculating, which be injects exhaust gases to be burnt again, since they have lower energy potential, the temperatures drop and less NOx is made.

[nialloftara]

Or intake water injection like BMW is looking into.

[strop]

I actually understand Leo's point of view on this. The kind of R&D that goes into a car that recognises when it is being tested is akin to creating some kind of AI that can pick up on something that seems fundamentally different but from a measurement point of view is actually very subtle. Furthermore, knowing that VAG was not alone in playing the diesel gambit, I can imagine their rationale was something like "well, we all know that everybody cheats, so we might as well do it better than everybody". It reminds me of the pro cycling circuit, which would make VW the Lance Armstrong of diesel.

Where it hurts the most and why VW can't actually damage control this is because their gambit involved not just " bending the rules" but a flagrant lie about their entire premise, sustained over several years, misleading their entire target customer base. In those circumstances, you can't just say "oh, well, we did it because everybody did it," even if they're kind of correct. Also, if one says that, well, that's just writing the doom of diesel in cars and much of the European automotive industry on the wall. And VW don't want that either.

[nialloftara]

Only thing is VW didn't make the cheat system. It was Bosch that supplied it for what they thought was testing purposes back in like 2007. http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-bos ... g-in-2007/

[Leonardo9613]

I don't think this will hurt diesel sales on the EU. What might hurt them are the higher taxes and the bans on diesel cars from city centres, like what Paris and London are planning. The extra fuel economy, combined with less strict emission requirements in relation to the US, is far too appealing for european consumers.

On the USA, on the other hand, the story is a lot different. I wouldn't be supervised if this was a new Oldsmobile diesel moment, when, once again, the diesel passenger car would cease to exist in NA, or at least the sales will plummet and it will take a lot of marketing effort to make them viable and desired by the general public. If that will work, with the rise of EV, and hydrogen cars on the medium-long term, only time will tell.

[strop]

Only thing is VW didn't make the cheat system. It was Bosch that supplied it for what they thought was testing purposes back in like 2007. http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-bos ... g-in-2007/

Oh yes, I'm well aware of this, though it did need to be said. It also needs to be said that the decision to use the software for that purpose would have to be very deliberate.

What I don't know is was that software commissioned or used only by VAG?

[TheTom]

Great progress, VW

[Noporian]

I'm a bit out on this so question:

How BIG is the emissions actually?