VW Emissions scandal

[nialloftara]

Nox levels are roughly on par with a early 70's post leaded precat american v8.

[strop]

All we ever heard was 'up to 40 times advertised', assuming advertised meant 'complies with US EPA emission standards'. And of course remembering that diesels don't pose much of a problem with CO2 i.e. greenhouse gases, it's NOx i.e. local smog and pollution.

I wonder what the market effect is going to be. Diesels will probably cop a bit of a blow, but at least in Australia, diesel isn't a big sector of the market and the VW Golf is by far the most popular car among any demographic that can afford it, including rich people, who aren't going to feel bothered by this issue at all. As for the 80000+ vehicles that do run the cheat, we still don't even know what that means over here. Australia's not particularly robust when it comes to climate consciousness :\

[cpufreak101]

All we ever heard was 'up to 40 times advertised', assuming advertised meant 'complies with US EPA emission standards'. And of course remembering that diesels don't pose much of a problem with CO2 i.e. greenhouse gases, it's NOx i.e. local smog and pollution.

I wonder what the market effect is going to be. Diesels will probably cop a bit of a blow, but at least in Australia, diesel isn't a big sector of the market and the VW Golf is by far the most popular car among any demographic that can afford it, including rich people, who aren't going to feel bothered by this issue at all. As for the 80000+ vehicles that do run the cheat, we still don't even know what that means over here. Australia's not particularly robust when it comes to climate consciousness :\

yeah i live in the US and diesel is only really seen as a thing for trucks over here, and diesel for cars was starting to pick up a bit but all hopes are destroyed due to this

[partario]

yeah i live in the US and diesel is only really seen as a thing for trucks over here, and diesel for cars was starting to pick up a bit but all hopes are destroyed due to this

For the general US market, diesel cars are a niche indeed, but from VW's point of view it's quite different - these days (before the dieselgate scandal, ofcourse) diesels make up about 1/4 of VW's sales in the States. VW's whole marketing has been centered on the 'clean diesel' thing.

I'm not sure what effect this whole thing has for other manufacturers pushing diesel engines, but VW is in a world of pain.

[strop]

Well, the basic message that everybody interested in cars in diesel is: clean efficient and powerful diesel in cars is unfeasible. And that will extend to other manufacturers. So I do wonder if BMW and Merc will continue to go the diesel way or switch!

[TheTom]

what would be the alternative? Finally doing some research to develop new technologies that would make the good-old petrol engines more efficient? E.g. Fiat's Multiair or Koenigsegg's free valve technology.
Because I don't think hybrids would be a great suggestion, since they are quite a bit more expensive than diesels, for a number of reasons obviously.

[Leonardo9613]

Nox levels are roughly on par with a early 70's post leaded precat american v8.

That is very wrong. Those vw engines complied with Euro4, European 2004 emissions limits (0,5 g/km). The current limit on Europe, under euro 6, is 0.08 g/km. The american standards are actually more lenient, but the driving simulations are more strict, so it becomes harder for makers to manage the american limits. So the affected VWs are a lot more pollutant than the most modern legislations, but they are nowhere near as bad as a pre-cat car.

For further info on 70s emissions standards, check this Jalopnik article: http://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most-amazing-smackdo-1576732771 and this other FAQ about the diesel scandal http://www.theicct.org/news/faq-use-nox-emissions-diesel-passenger-cars

[nialloftara]

The TDI'S put out around 1gram per kilometer or 1.379grams per mile, the current us limit is .04 gram per mile, in 1981 the limit was 1 gram per mile, and the average 1950's car put out 3.36 grams per mile. By the 70's car makers were fighting the clean air act but their emissions were down due to cleaner gasoline and a dropping compression ratio, the US clean air act in 1971 called for a 90% drop in emissions by 1975, which would had lowered the NOx to .4 grams per mile back in '76 but that was pushed back and raised to that 1 gram in '81 limit. So if a 90% drop in NOx left .4 it seems reasonable to assume that prior to the law a car could be putting out right around that 1.379 gram per mile

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/12-miles.pdf

Not the most reliable source I'll admit, but the numbers are good.
""The ICCT, which discovered the violation, says VW cars "exceeded the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard" by 10-35 times depending on model.
The Tier2-Bin5 standard is 0.07 grams per mile.
If VW cars averaged 30x the standard, that's 2.1 grams per mile""

http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/201 ... id-vw-kill

[adamd]

I think there's some confusion here between the testing going on on the road and the official lab tests. In the lab tests the VWs were far better, on the road yes, they are terrible.

However it has since been noted that pretty much all other diesels are waaaay over the limit when being driven, but pass the lab tests legally due to clever mapping. As the cars always run with that clever mapping, they're not illegal, not like VW obviously changing the car between lab/road usage.

[nialloftara]

The x5 that was used in the same test that found the VW cheat performed about the same as in the lab test. The new NOx emission limit pretty much required auto makers to add exhaust fluid injection, VW didn't and started using the cheat code. In normal on road conditions most US diesels and any that are euro teir 6, are still are close to the requirements, aside from heavy load situations like going up hills, towing, or hard acceleration.

[strop]

what would be the alternative? Finally doing some research to develop new technologies that would make the good-old petrol engines more efficient? E.g. Fiat's Multiair or Koenigsegg's free valve technology.
Because I don't think hybrids would be a great suggestion, since they are quite a bit more expensive than diesels, for a number of reasons obviously.

Except diesels have just been proven to be quite a bit more expensive than VW cared to admit, thanks to the obligatory urea 'smog mopping' system they require.

Else I'm really curious as to just how much power and efficiency is lost when permanently running those cars in 'test mode'. A few videoblogs etc. have attempted to demonstrate this but I'm skeptical.

[nialloftara]

This is the most accurate test I've seen of it. Sourced from consumer reports. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/09/vw-d ... orts-test/

[adamd]

The x5 that was used in the same test that found the VW cheat performed about the same as in the lab test. The new NOx emission limit pretty much required auto makers to add exhaust fluid injection, VW didn't and started using the cheat code. In normal on road conditions most US diesels and any that are euro teir 6, are still are close to the requirements, aside from heavy load situations like going up hills, towing, or hard acceleration.

Yeah sorry, I was referring more to Europe where everything has failed dismally due to differing regulations and the fact they test them in such a specific set of circumstances, it never happens in real driving. I'll see if I can find the article that had pretty much every manufacturer going that showed all the diesels were mapped to pass the tests and nothing else.

[07CobaltGirl]

Here is what I don't understand, regarding the US market. Where I live, diesel engine automobiles aren't ever tested after they are sold. Perhaps there is something about pre-sales for our market, but they are exempt from state emissions testing indefinitely. Currently, any gasoline engine made after 1990 has to pass an emission test annually. I don't live in Smallville, either. Atlanta, Georgia, with a population of nearly 6 million, has pretty stiff emission requirements. So, while they may have pulled the wool over the eyes of the Federal EPA, only about 10 states actually test them after they are sold.