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Chassis Components v Variants

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yacskn

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:44 am

Chassis Components v Variants

Ability to select chassis components separate from the base model, so that we can change parts like suspensions without changing the cheaper base models per se.

Tell me what you think.
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Killrob

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:02 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

That defeats the point of having a "platform vs. trims" separation in the first place if I understand you right. In that case: I think that's a bad idea, not necessarily right now but considering how the game will work in the tycoon part.
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yacskn

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:28 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

Killrob wrote:That defeats the point of having a "platform vs. trims" separation in the first place if I understand you right. In that case: I think that's a bad idea, not necessarily right now but considering how the game will work in the tycoon part.


Right. Let me elaborate then...

My thinking was that you can say, build a cheap family sedan with a sensible I4. Then use the same platform and drop a bigger engine in, with better bells and whistles to create more variants and to enter perhaps a higher segment, make a sporty version while you're at it too. You know, as is done in real life; a selection of engine and trim packages, which could (and perhaps should) include better suspension options (and perhaps even chassis and panel materials a la Aston Martin Vanquish amongst others) for more expensive packages.
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TrackpadUser

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:05 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

Do you have examples of cars where they change the suspension geometry between trims?

I know of one, the Toyota Matrix, where the FWD version has a Torsion beam rear suspension, and the AWD version seems to have some sort of multilink suspension that includes the trailing arm used in the FWD in addition to a few other members.

Still, IMHO I would think we are better off keeping this option closed, since AFAIK, no car IRL has major suspension geometry changes between variants.

Same for the chassis and panel material. From the info I can find, all variants of the current gen Vanquish have carbon fiber panels with, AFAIK, a glued aluminum chassis.
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nialloftara

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

Right so you can do that to a extent right now, engine swaps are no problem, springs, struts, and sway bars all be changed in the trim tab, what you can't change is the actual suspension mounting points which are part of the frame of the car, to do so would mean retooling the production line extensively, the same goes for frame material and body panel material. You can make a new trim with upgraded components, but the basic structure must remain the same in a model family.
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Slim Jim

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:11 pm

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

TrackpadUser wrote:Do you have examples of cars where they change the suspension geometry between trims?


Ford Mustang SVT Cobra 1999-2004. They had unequal length control arms in the rear instead of a solid axle like the other trims.

Also the Ford Taurus too... from 1986-1995. If I remember correctly, the sedans had MacPherson struts front and rear, while the wagon version had Double Wishbones in the rear.

Still, IMHO I would think we are better off keeping this option closed, since AFAIK, VERY FEW cars IRL have major suspension geometry changes between variants.


Fixed it for you. :P And I agree.
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TrackpadUser

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

I gave an example then said no cars do it.

DERP

Still, even if it was somewhat common, it is something I would put in the same category as allowing different head configurations within the same engine family.

It is done IRL, but it would also create the possibility for a lot of very lame and cheesy exploits.
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Killrob

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:46 pm

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

TrackpadUser wrote:It is done IRL, but it would also create the possibility for a lot of very lame and cheesy exploits.

Indeed, in these cases we choose gameplay over realism. :)
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yacskn

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:31 pm

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

TrackpadUser wrote:Do you have examples of cars where they change the suspension geometry between trims?

... Same for the chassis and panel material. From the info I can find, all variants of the current gen Vanquish have carbon fiber panels with, AFAIK, a glued aluminum chassis.



Well most production cars, like the Mitsubishi Lancer, will be fitted with a different and in many cases better suspension (amongst other things) when they're being turned into a high performance model.

Panel material swap is also a thing, like the different M3s of yesteryears (CSL? GTR?) (By the way what I wanted to mean with the Aston thing was actually true for their model range, not specifically for the Vanquish per se, but it still stands as they have a carbon version of their DB9 and Vanquish models... it's not just an isolated case for the Astons and the Beemers, though I can't remember all the names at the top of my head at 4:00AM :) )

It's not just different parts either. If I want to build a sporty version of my current production car with better build quality I would still have to upgrade the whole line. Something I don't want to do, since my cars are not products of 5 minute boredom killing exercises but of quite a bit of research and reading and a WHOLE lotta tinkering .
Besides as things stand pretty much the only thing you can do without affecting the base model when creating a new variant is mostly visual (body-wise). If I want to upgrade the quality of my production or my materials for my new variant, I have to create a whole new model and try to copy everything from the original.

I'd like to simulate the practice of designing a base model and then creating variants for a wide range of uses tailored for different demographics based on that model, upgrade it as time passes.
I think it'd do wonders for the gameplay if the player has the ability to work with his/her base model and doesn't have to create a new model everytime he/she wants to change something.

Another thing I'm starting to have issue with is the suggestion of "just creating another variant", as this is what most of the responses to the things in the "Suggestions" section of the forum boils down to. I'm assuming creating another say, engine variant just to switch to more silent mufflers will cost some pretty money when the tycoon bit comes into play, no?

I think this game could go a long way if it did a better job of streamlining how it handles and manages variants and model upgrades, instead of forcing us to do yet another variant or line.

My 2 cents.
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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:46 pm

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

yacskn wrote:Well most production cars, like the Mitsubishi Lancer, will be fitted with a different and in many cases better suspension (amongst other things) when they're being turned into a high performance model.


As it was said earlier, changing the suspension geometry isn't very common.

Changing the components, like shocks and springs is quite common though, but you can already do that.

Panel material swap is also a thing, like the different M3s of yesteryears (CSL? GTR?) (By the way what I wanted to mean with the Aston thing was actually true for their model range, not specifically for the Vanquish per se, but it still stands as they have a carbon version of their DB9 and Vanquish models... it's not just an isolated case for the Astons and the Beemers, though I can't remember all the names at the top of my head at 4:00AM :) )


Maybe, but once again, it is fairly uncommon, and it tends to be limited to fairly specific components most of the time like the hood.

I'd like to simulate the practice of designing a base model and then creating variants for a wide range of uses tailored for different demographics based on that model, upgrade it as time passes.
I think it'd do wonders for the gameplay if the player has the ability to work with his/her base model and doesn't have to create a new model everytime he/she wants to change something.


That's actually one of the cheesy strategies I was thinking of. Letting you change the suspension type could let you cover pretty much every single demographic with a single model if you chose a car body with enough variants. I think we can agree that it is not very good for gameplay :)

One of the fun aspects of dealing with platforms is the fact that they have to be somewhat of a compromise for the various applications it will be used in.
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yacskn

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Post Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:37 pm

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

TrackpadUser wrote:That's actually one of the cheesy strategies I was thinking of. Letting you change the suspension type could let you cover pretty much every single demographic with a single model if you chose a car body with enough variants. I think we can agree that it is not very good for gameplay :)

One of the fun aspects of dealing with platforms is the fact that they have to be somewhat of a compromise for the various applications it will be used in.


I mean sure, there are types of people who'll game the system and exploit it's aspects for an easier win. And I agree that this diminishes the value of gameplay.
However this is not an MMOG where my gameplay experience depends on you being honest and the developers curbing aspects of the game to make it more of a level playing field. Someone cheating in their game is not going to affect the enjoyment you get from your game. Yet, having the flexibility to customise your creations more in tune with reality is going to add to the immersion that we all desperately look for in the games we honest folk play.

I personally like to give myself challenges in the game and make cars that are suited to the body type I chose for a specific (historically realistic) demographic. Hence I used the term "simulate".
And if I were to choose to be an a*** and create a single model for all types of demographics, who cares! It's my choice. Besides, make no mistake, if I want to game the system and create a single model for all types of demographics, I already have the tools to make it happen, as is.
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Post Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:55 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

These are very common things to be done, both changing panel materials and rear suspensions. Various cars get all steel bodies bodies on cheaper, less sporty trims, and lightweight parts, which in the game would qualify as partial aluminium, and different suspensions too.

Examples regarding suspensions go from basic stuff, like the Dacia Duster and Fiat Panda, which exchange their torsion beams for multi link suspensions on the AWD versions. Or the VW MQB cars, which are the Golf, Leon, Octavia, Passat, that have cheaper torsion beams on the lower spec models and multilink on the more powerful ones. It wouldn't be a game breaking exploit if the engineering costs were considered, since two different suspension systems would have to be engineered, which would mean twice the costs, and higher tooling costs, since the factory would have to be adapted for two different systems Also, the same could be said of different panel materials, which are even more common.
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Killrob

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Post Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:01 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

All true, but the design choices made are so integral to how the game works that we won't reconsider them at this point. We still think the separation we have chosen will be best for gameplay.
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nialloftara

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Post Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:23 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

Besides, it's way more fun to figure out how to make a cheap fwd car with torsion rear suspension go fast with clever tuning that just cheezing out and giving it multi link and awd.
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Post Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:54 am

Re: Chassis Components v Variants

Eh, its easy enough to game most demographics as is when the body has enough variations.
I don't see how changing the suspension geometry between trims could possibly ruin the gameplay considering that there have been a number of cars that were very competitive in a multitude of demographics IRL.
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