Too much brakes penalty

[PMP1337]

Suggesting a penalty for when the brake power exceeds the tire capacity in cars without ABS. And a further suggestion is after that have implemented a brake bias modifier to stats given that if the rear brakes looks first the car will spin.
Also, the penalty being more severe the sooner the brake power crosses the tire capability.
Was this clear?

[xABSOLUTIONx]

all makes sense, but i'm really not sure about the bias bit

[Leonardo9613]

If I recall correctly, the brake fade calculations will be revised now on this rebalancing subproject, having the penalty for locking too easily without ABS does sound to me as a good idea.

[Packbat]

With the way brake pad type affects brake fade, I think you would have to have an additional brake bias slider if you wanted to incorporate a penalty for brakes locking up. That said, once you implement it, I imagine drivability and sportiness would be affected by:

• Which locks up first: front (penalty to sportiness) or rear (penalty to drivability).
• How prone to locking up are they? (penalties to both drivability and sportiness for amount of locking up).

...and all of these penalties would be reduced by ABS, and more so if the ABS is of higher quality.

[BlastersPewPew]

For example my truck is damned near IMPOSSIBLE to lock up the front wheels, the rears though are super happy to lock up (when the ABS isnt working which happens after a very bumpy dirt road), when the ABS IS working the truck stops like a dream. BUT, here is the kicker, it only has REAR ABS, and it is NOT based off of wheel speed but differential speed, so even if ONE wheel locks the ABS system still sees movement in the differential due to the other wheel still spinning and thinks everything is "ok", this could be the lowest "quality" ABS I can think of but it IS better than no ABS.

[Killrob]

A drivability penalty for overpowering brakes w/o ABS sounds like a good idea, I'll look into that.

[BlastersPewPew]

It would make weaker brakes more "usable" then, as it is now everyone pretty much maxes out their brakes with very little in the way of penalties when over the grip limit. This would be a great addition IMO. Also even WITH ABS there should be a penalty albeit less, mainly because the ABS system is going to be working MUCH more often, maybe make it hit the comfort stat a bit? Car "drives" fine but who would want to drive a car that activates its ABS at every stop sign? That WOULD get uncomfy.

[TrackpadUser]

The thing is, every single modern car has brakes that can overpower the tires.

So we need to make sure cars that have a decently tuned setup don't get penalized too much, not creating cheesy strategies like the current overpowerness of overly long 1st gears.

Obviously if the wheels lock when you look at the pedal wrong, then it is an issue, but if its properly tuned I don't see how it can create any major driveability problems.

[Leonardo9613]

Yeah, that is a valid point, tpu. However on the game right now, the best strategy seems to be maximising the brake size and then having a low-ish pad, resulting in very powerful brakes that would indeed lock easily and just having the biggest brakes you could fit on all cars.

[PMP1337]

The thing is, every single modern car has brakes that can overpower the tires.

That is why I thought of this. I was, and still am, trying to recreate a tycoon campaign, building cars through time. It initially started as a test to how long an engine could be used.
During this I realized the game wasn't following real life logic when it came to brakes.
I mean, I drive a car with no ABS, and I wouldn't want to replace my back drum brakes with disc brake. Not with the tires I'm using now. I swear to you if I had bigger brakes I would already have run over a person or two. There is a reason discs all around only became standard after ABS appeared.

[BlastersPewPew]

That and people dont know how to drive What is NOT fun is having your drums pretend they are super discs when slightly wet, man do they lock up QUICK then. And I do not agree that every modern car can overpower the tires, the cheapest eco boxes with GOOD tires (not those crap ones they come with) might have issues locking up the fronts, generally though it is the pickup category that has issues locking up the fronts from my experience, mainly due to the sheer amount of weight up front and lack of weight in the back.......but then again my truck isnt "modern" anymore, 1989 was quite some time ago.

[NormanVauxhall]

I suppose that "payload carrier" vehicle need way more braking force to deal with the higher weight given by the payload.

[KLinardo]

I've never completely locked the wheels on my F-150... but it's a 2010 and I have ABS. However, in snow and ice, the rears always lock first because the front has the most weight and the longitudinal center of gravity moves forward during braking as the shocks in the front compress. The rear has little weight over the axle when empty and the leaf springs don't do much to help. That reduction of weight equals reduction of friction and traction as a result. Then couple that with brakes designed to be able to stop a vehicle and towing capacity that exceeds 10,000 lbs and you have yourself some lock-up in the right conditions.

[ArnRno]

There is a reason discs all around only became standard after ABS appeared.

Weird... The ONLY cars I've ever been in with 4-wheel discs have been non-ABS cars.

[PMP1337]

There is a reason discs all around only became standard after ABS appeared.

Weird... The ONLY cars I've ever been in with 4-wheel discs have been non-ABS cars.

Such as?