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Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

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Killrob

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Post Sat May 16, 2015 6:10 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

chrisbo28 wrote:What a shame, another suggestion of me would have been to increase the boost up to 7 bar for those who would like to recreate the BMW Megatron turbo engine. :(

Which production petrol car has every used more than 3 bar boost pressure from factory? Name a few...
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chrisbo28

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Post Sat May 16, 2015 6:54 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

Killrob wrote:
chrisbo28 wrote:What a shame, another suggestion of me would have been to increase the boost up to 7 bar for those who would like to recreate the BMW Megatron turbo engine. :(

Which production petrol car has every used more than 3 bar boost pressure from factory? Name a few...

Are we talking about arbitrary limitations or an enormous extra effort?
I am talking about the most powerful formula 1 turbo engine ever since. Racing engines are part of the game. :)
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Post Sat May 16, 2015 7:18 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

They aren't really part of the game. Especially not F1 engines.
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Killrob

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Post Sat May 16, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

chrisbo28 wrote:Are we talking about arbitrary limitations or an enormous extra effort?

We are talking about something that does not fit the core goals of the game as my question implies, making it worse for implementing such a thing (because that is effort spent on something entirely irrelevant).
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Post Tue May 19, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

Quick question, probably irrelevant, but being able to option between Timing Belt and Chain?
Something I noticed about Subaru's when I was working there as a detailer was that the Chain Timing Engines were a bit noisier (offset by the manufacturer by an increase in sound proofing, the noticed sound change was purely from outside) but also had a significantly higher service interval and reliability expectation, than the older Belted Timing motors. I know Honda goes back and forth depending on the vehicle the engine is going in as well, also Toyota.
It's just one more thing, and again probably irrelevant... just a 2 cents moment.

Truly,
Tex
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Killrob

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Post Tue May 19, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

The "timing belt vs. chain" is an interesting compromise, albeit pretty small, but where would you fit in this binary option, sticking to the UI layout we got?
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NormanVauxhall

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Post Tue May 19, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

I really find the timing belt/chain idea interesting (my first suggestion post in the forum years ago had that same question)

In the engine family tab there is the columns for the VVL option. Except for VVL yes or no, I don't know if there is any plan about other options in there. If there isn't any, cutting in half the VVL/No VVL option can give anough space to the timing belt/chain selection.
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Killrob

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Post Tue May 19, 2015 7:31 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

That is a place where it would fit in, yes. I wouldn't place it as a family item though, but as a variant choice. Probably should be in the top end tab in that case.
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Post Tue May 19, 2015 7:53 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

Killrob wrote:I wouldn't place it as a family item though, but as a variant choice.


Would you not? I would have thought it would be most suited as a family item choice. It allows for further differences between families and gives it a more real world feel imo.

Although I've not looked into it at all but are there real world engine families with both chain and belt drive variants?
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Killrob

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Post Wed May 20, 2015 3:25 am

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

Technically there is very little difference between belt and chain, considering how much all the other choices on the family tab affect engines and their design, this one would seem entirely trivial in comparison. Hence I see it more as a variant item. I agree with the sentiment that it would be an interesting choice though.
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BlastersPewPew

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Post Wed May 20, 2015 4:00 am

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

I am one of those guys that want all the options we can have, gears, chains, belts etc but I am also one that wants the game to be finished before Windows 54 is released. As it is right now the belt used is just cosmetic, yes it would be cool to have chains/gears too but not at the expense of extending dev time. I say keep the belt and then add more options after 1.0 IF there is a demand for it and IF it can be justified, chain/gear/belt CAN be justified IMO just not at this stage of development.
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chrisbo28

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Post Wed May 20, 2015 7:09 am

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

Killrob wrote:
chrisbo28 wrote:Are we talking about arbitrary limitations or an enormous extra effort?

We are talking about something that does not fit the core goals of the game as my question implies, making it worse for implementing such a thing (because that is effort spent on something entirely irrelevant).


Your question implies that the game should be restricted to something that has already been done yet which does not equate to something that does not fit and thus is entirely irrelevant. Racing engines obviously fit the core goals . There is no reason why higher boost shouldn't. E. g. in the game, you have the task for creating a racing engines for a company.
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Post Wed May 20, 2015 7:17 am

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

By no means do I want to make this small change a big deal, it was just a neat suggestion that I'm sure can be pushed in an update after release. The biggest part would simply be the graphics, which can wait until after release. Otherwise the differences between the two option there, are simply engine smoothness (which affects the luxury rating in the end) versus Engine Reliability and Maintenance interval.

As for where in the UI... If specifically for Variants (Which I personally prefer but that doesn't make it an absolute, obviously) on the valvetrain window (third one into engine design, as it appears on my steam version) We could split the VVT space in half. As there are only ever really 3 options, None, VVT - Intake, and VVT - All Cams. If we divide this section into two that should leave room underneath for a second option selectable as it wont need much space for only two options.

How's that sound?

Truly,
Tex
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Post Wed May 20, 2015 7:23 am

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

@chrisbo

The devs have said multiple times that this game is about production cars and engines. So no, racing engines do not fit the core of this game.

And it isn't as simple as adding more range to the slider. It will require a lot of work to make sure everything works nicely, especially since turbos are surprisingly hard to simulate properly.

Let's also add that the current turbo sizes already have issues pushing 3 bars of boost.
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MWisBest

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Post Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: Please Note: Engine Designer is Feature Locked

LilRedRhyder wrote:Quick question, probably irrelevant, but being able to option between Timing Belt and Chain?
Something I noticed about Subaru's when I was working there as a detailer was that the Chain Timing Engines were a bit noisier (offset by the manufacturer by an increase in sound proofing, the noticed sound change was purely from outside) but also had a significantly higher service interval and reliability expectation, than the older Belted Timing motors. I know Honda goes back and forth depending on the vehicle the engine is going in as well, also Toyota.
It's just one more thing, and again probably irrelevant... just a 2 cents moment.

Truly,
Tex

One thing I want to add to this is that timing belt reliability and service interval is something that has changed greatly over time. At the very least, by the 1990s they were a 100,000 mile thing for a number of engines (hell, mine went 130,000 miles and 15 years and succumbed to two spun main bearings rather than the belt or tensioner breaking), and when replacing it the water pump gets replaced too as that is right next to it and lasts about as long anyway. Timing chain engines would still have a water pump, with a similar life-expectancy, so in the grand scheme of things the increased cost of a timing belt vs a timing chain over the life of a car is nearly a wash.
Then there's the matter of a timing chain weighing more (timing belt could have an extra 0.0001MPG, saving the owner what, a few bucks every 100,000 miles) and having an additional cost up front vs a belt.
I do think a timing belt vs a timing chain is an interesting debate, each have their advantages and disadvantages, however I think they're enough of a wash that they don't belong in the Engine Designer.
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