Automation Engine Designer Demo Feedback Thread

[T16]

Surely using the same gear usage profile will create quite poor result when you compare a car that drives with 1000 rpm at 100km/h in top gear to a car that's geared too 5000 rpm at 100km/h in top gear. Clearly the lower geared car will spend more time in the higher gears (actually in this case it will spend almost all the time in top gear).

If what you are say is that it should be X % city cruising in what gear make the most sense for traveling speed ect. plus some acceleration sections, that's of course fine if a bit obvious.

[Dario]

I do not follow you, size of wheels, gearbox, differential, what I see in the game is just an engine in the test location. For me to measure life in revolutions is the best. I just have a doubt about how it is measured. I think if I make a utilitarian car engine that is supposed to turn most of the time in 2000 - 3000 rpm it makes no sense that the maximum speed affects so much of its duration, the end will go for very little time at that speed.
In my opinion a good solution is to calculate life of the motor simulating a test in which runs in its optimal range calculated from the value set in the cam profile.
One could assume that an engine with cam 0 is designed to run on 1000 to 3000 rpm and a motor 100 is designed to run on 9k-12k rpm, with all intermediate values​​. And only marginally from the maximum value.

[Daffyflyer]

It'll calculate actual economy once the car is built, using some kind of economy cycle of various loads etc. probably based on one of the official ones (EPA etc.)

Of course this will only be possible once it has a gearbox, tires and a body etc.

[Killrob]

Yes, Zeph, I fully agree with what you wrote there. For engines on the engine stand it probably will remain MRevs, but once you build the cars, they have their own MTTF value (shown in miles/kilometers), which will depend on a multitude of factors... and the engine is only one of them. No need for a detailed doc right now save that energy for later when we are working on the car designer and stuff still seems wrong to you hehe.

[Zephyroth]

Surely using the same gear usage profile will create quite poor result when you compare a car that drives with 1000 rpm at 100km/h in top gear to a car that's geared too 5000 rpm at 100km/h in top gear. Clearly the lower geared car will spend more time in the higher gears (actually in this case it will spend almost all the time in top gear).

If what you are say is that it should be X % city cruising in what gear make the most sense for traveling speed ect. plus some acceleration sections, that's of course fine if a bit obvious.

That are sure extreme examples and you are basically right. But when you build up the car, you will recognize that it makes no sense to use such a extreme long or short final gear. In case of the long gear, the car will not reach the maximum possible speed, because the engine has not enough torque. On the other end, the short gear, the car will run into the rev limiter, without reaching its max speed.

If you design a car properly, you will try to get the max speed near the max power of the engine (which is usually at 90% of max rpm). Maybe for economy reasons you make the top gear a bit longer than necessary. But starting from this point you have to distribute the other gears quite even over the speed range. If you do so, you will find out, that the spreading of the gears and the final gear ratio obeys always to the same rule:

"Put the final gear near to the max. power at max. speed"

Even a powerful car with a big V12 engine will do around 2500rpm at around 90mph in the final gear. The final gear has to reach higher speeds (at nearly same rpm), therefore the rpms at cruising are lower.

Of course, there are gearboxes out, with one or two economical gears. These are used for cruising and do not reach max. speed. For example my Civic had 6 gears, the 6th was the economical one. To reach max speed I have to stick to the 5th, but for normal cruising at allowed speeds the 6th is fine.

I do not follow you, size of wheels, gearbox, differential, what I see in the game is just an engine in the test location. For me to measure life in revolutions is the best. I just have a doubt about how it is measured. I think if I make a utilitarian car engine that is supposed to turn most of the time in 2000 - 3000 rpm it makes no sense that the maximum speed affects so much of its duration, the end will go for very little time at that speed.
In my opinion a good solution is to calculate life of the motor simulating a test in which runs in its optimal range calculated from the value set in the cam profile.
One could assume that an engine with cam 0 is designed to run on 1000 to 3000 rpm and a motor 100 is designed to run on 9k-12k rpm, with all intermediate values​​. And only marginally from the maximum value.

As I've written before, for engine design, the MRevs are fine. But the aim of the game is to build a car. And as a car manufacturer you have to know, how much mileage can be done with your car, not how many MRev the engine will survive.

Personally I think the engine designer is great, with a big amount of reality. It's perfect that a sharper cam profile or higher rpm are lowering engine life. That fits perfect. Although I want to know how's the weighting of load and speed range to calculate engine life? Is it at nominal power, at max torque, at max rpm? Don't know.

Greetz,
Zeph

[Zephyroth]

Surely using the same gear usage profile will create quite poor result when you compare a car that drives with 1000 rpm at 100km/h in top gear to a car that's geared too 5000 rpm at 100km/h in top gear. Clearly the lower geared car will spend more time in the higher gears (actually in this case it will spend almost all the time in top gear).

If what you are say is that it should be X % city cruising in what gear make the most sense for traveling speed ect. plus some acceleration sections, that's of course fine if a bit obvious.

That are sure extreme examples and you are basically right. But when you build up the car, you will recognize that it makes no sense to use such a extreme long or short final gear. In case of the long gear, the car will not reach the maximum possible speed, because the engine has not enough torque. On the other end, the short gear, the car will run into the rev limiter, without reaching its max speed.

If you design a car properly, you will try to get the max speed near the max power of the engine (which is usually at 90% of max rpm). Maybe for economy reasons you make the top gear a bit longer than necessary. But starting from this point you have to distribute the other gears quite even over the speed range. If you do so, you will find out, that the spreading of the gears and the final gear ratio obeys always to the same rule:

"Put the final gear near to the max. power at max. speed"

Even a powerful car with a big V12 engine will do around 2500rpm at around 90mph in the final gear. The final gear has to reach higher speeds (at nearly same rpm), therefore the rpms at cruising are lower.

Of course, there are gearboxes out, with one or two economical gears. These are used for cruising and do not reach max. speed. For example my Civic had 6 gears, the 6th was the economical one. To reach max speed I have to stick to the 5th, but for normal cruising at allowed speeds the 6th is fine.

I do not follow you, size of wheels, gearbox, differential, what I see in the game is just an engine in the test location. For me to measure life in revolutions is the best. I just have a doubt about how it is measured. I think if I make a utilitarian car engine that is supposed to turn most of the time in 2000 - 3000 rpm it makes no sense that the maximum speed affects so much of its duration, the end will go for very little time at that speed.
In my opinion a good solution is to calculate life of the motor simulating a test in which runs in its optimal range calculated from the value set in the cam profile.
One could assume that an engine with cam 0 is designed to run on 1000 to 3000 rpm and a motor 100 is designed to run on 9k-12k rpm, with all intermediate values​​. And only marginally from the maximum value.

As I've written before, for engine design, the MRevs are fine. But the aim of the game is to build a car. And as a car manufacturer you have to know, how much mileage can be done with your car, not how many MRev the engine will survive.

Personally I think the engine designer is great, with a big amount of reality. It's perfect that a sharper cam profile or higher rpm are lowering engine life. That fits perfect. Although I want to know how's the weighting of load and speed range to calculate engine life? Is it at nominal power, at max torque, at max rpm? Don't know.

Yes, Zeph, I fully agree with what you wrote there. For engines on the engine stand it probably will remain MRevs, but once you build the cars, they have their own MTTF value (shown in miles/kilometers), which will depend on a multitude of factors... and the engine is only one of them. No need for a detailed doc right now save that energy for later when we are working on the car designer and stuff still seems wrong to you hehe.

All I wanted to say is, that you never can look at one component alone. A car is a system and it works (at least for the customer) as one piece and it the weakest component limits the lifetime...

Greetz,
Zeph

[Killrob]

I think now all is made very clear. Good post. I don't think there is anything to add except for a fun little thing (knowing that you are an Autobahn driving German): how is 90 mph even remotely close to a world-wide accepted, average cruising speed? xD
Cheers!

[Zephyroth]

I'm Austrian and limited to around 80mph , but I often go up to 95mph.

I've already made the suggestion, that the weighting profiles of the gears may be changeable (USA, Europe, German, Japan). But if you go 80mph or 100mph with the same car in the final gear, it won't change the needed MRevs for the desired mileage.

But it changes the load on the engine, that it may not last as long as desired. That's a point you mentioned before and I agree. Should be solved...

Greetz,
Zeph

[avengingtn]

Well even on the engine side, instead of lb/hph... gph/lph and ppm could be used. at 10 bazillion revs you'll get 0.0000000000000000001 gph, but that's rare. It should be based on an average load expected of the engine?

I don't know. I guess it would be similar to the MREVs and that is why it's lb/hph, but the average tester(EPA and what not) won't be redlining the engine and measure it. That's why it's EPA "estimated average". Which seems legit.... I dunno. I'll shut up now.

MREV makes sense now I'd like to thank everyone for the explanation. hahah

[Daffyflyer]

It's LB/HPh etc so that its power independant, it shows you how efficient that engine is at converting fuel into power, without regard to how much power it makes. Given that you could use a large engine in a light car and get good economy as you're not using much of that power to move it (mind you you'll have losses for it being a larger capacity engine, but that a whole other thing)

[vantil]

Quick feedback:
The demo is awesome. The UI is great and intuitive, the tutorials/tips are very well made.
I am not much of a car guy so I was really suprised how much fun the engine designer can be.

Once you guys make a car building demo, I think you should really get it on desura. Alot of new people would try the demo and preorder.