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any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

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cpufreak101

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Post Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:09 pm

any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

so i ended up to decide to make a 2nd company in 1990 that makes some cheaper yet sporty cars (family sport budget, fun budget, light sport budget, track budget, convertible sport budget, and premium budget) however, i never tried to make a cheaper car before, as all my previous attempts have been failures, anybody have any tips?
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strop

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Post Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:50 pm

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

In order of building process:

  • No CF. You can go AHS steel if it's available. Fiber glass is horrible for safety and expensive to machine. Currently, using partial alu assumes you have two separate factory processes so is also more expensive than expected.
  • Double wishbone suspension is still worth it, IMO
  • The more cylinders you have, the longer it takes to engineer. Keep it low. If you're using a 4-banger, consider a turbo but you'll have to tune it competently
  • Try not to go too nuts with the sliders here or do anything that will cause engineering time or PU to shoot sky high. Also try to stick to the cheaper materials (NO titanium conrods). And you'll find your displacement rarely has to go higher than 2L, even 2.6L V6 is kind of pushing it.
  • Once MPFI becomes available switch to that ASAP. SFI and carbs are horrible in comparison.
  • Manual transmission is better for fun, sport, but is also not too expensive.
  • Wide wheels still give better sport and drive benefits than they take away from extra costs.
  • Once vented discs become available, go for those. You should likely not need more than 1 piston. Maybe 2 pots on the front if you're making an FF car.
  • Cars of this caliber rarely need much extra downforce. I use a semi or fully clad undertray if I want one.
  • Keep the interior simple. Basic. Definitely keep the entertainment basic. Funnily enough using 2 or 3 seats can still give you a decently competitive car for the buyer who would have otherwise considered a 'family' car.
  • Suspension tuning can give you a lot of sportiness if you keep it right. It's best to make a handling curve that has minimal understeer but does not end in terminal oversteer. You'll know you're close when changing the stiffness of the front springs doesn't change the curve much except the sharpness of the peak, and the drivability and sportiness ratios go in inverse directions.

Overall, cheaper materials, not too much playing around with tech sliders. Tune the handling well. Make the most of it and also tune your gearing to balance for maximum drivability as well as minimal fuel consumption.
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cpufreak101

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Post Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:00 pm

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

wow, thanks for that strop, and like i said, starting in 1990, so i should have quite a few things available, never considered the vented brakes since those are expensive compared to just drums, but yeah, i'll take your tips, as my current design has a 1.8L I4 in a FR configuration in a 3 door hatch, i'll show it off when it's completed
Company Id:1945270
Galt Motors, excelence since 1945
(PS, Galt automotive is still Galt motors, i use it interchangably)
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Dragawn

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Post Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:30 am

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

Some additional pointers that Strop hasn't pointed out:

  • A high throttle response can give a nice boost to sportiness, although decreasing driveability, you don't necessarily need to go with more throttle bodies, ignition timing, cam profile, fuel mixture and compression influence it aswell.
  • Get your handling line to match the red as much as possible, doing this may require experimenting with tyre sizes, if different tyre sizes front/back are acceptable. This will result in a very "neutral" handling car.
  • Pay attention to your high speed handling, it is worth sacrificing some fuel economy over some light aero to help balance oversteer/understeer at speed.
  • Small MR(/RR) cars are a viable option, they're generally cheaper to make due to just...being smaller and more lightweight.
  • FF is a good option aswell, although they have gotten some flak, they are more driveable, and have the power on the axle that carries the most weight = more traction, you can also make use of torsion beam on the rear axle then, saving money and weight whilst being practical if you so desire.
  • Don't spend money on a LSD if your car cant make use of it. If you don't have wheelspin, putting a LSD in is a waste of money.
  • In my opinion turbos aren't worth it as of now. They're great if you can't afford to make another engine family, but with the current lack of tech for them in Automation, they're laggy unresponsive beasts that will ruin your driveability, and make you choose between either performance or economy.
  • If you can afford the engineering, VVL is a lifesaver. It enables you to both make an economical and powerful, responsive engine with only a small sacrifice in the form of the octane number rising.
  • Later on Direct Injection may not be the answer, DI is expensive, opting for MPFI instead can save you some money that can be well spent elsewhere.
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cpufreak101

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Post Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:35 am

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

Dragawn wrote:Some additional pointers that Strop hasn't pointed out:

  • A high throttle response can give a nice boost to sportiness, although decreasing driveability, you don't necessarily need to go with more throttle bodies, ignition timing, cam profile, fuel mixture and compression influence it aswell.
  • Get your handling line to match the red as much as possible, doing this may require experimenting with tyre sizes, if different tyre sizes front/back are acceptable. This will result in a very "neutral" handling car.
  • Pay attention to your high speed handling, it is worth sacrificing some fuel economy over some light aero to help balance oversteer/understeer at speed.
  • Small MR(/RR) cars are a viable option, they're generally cheaper to make due to just...being smaller and more lightweight.
  • FF is a good option aswell, although they have gotten some flak, they are more driveable, and have the power on the axle that carries the most weight = more traction, you can also make use of torsion beam on the rear axle then, saving money and weight whilst being practical if you so desire.
  • Don't spend money on a LSD if your car cant make use of it. If you don't have wheelspin, putting a LSD in is a waste of money.
  • In my opinion turbos aren't worth it as of now. They're great if you can't afford to make another engine family, but with the current lack of tech for them in Automation, they're laggy unresponsive beasts that will ruin your driveability, and make you choose between either performance or economy.
  • If you can afford the engineering, VVL is a lifesaver. It enables you to both make an economical and powerful, responsive engine with only a small sacrifice in the form of the octane number rising.
  • Later on Direct Injection may not be the answer, DI is expensive, opting for MPFI instead can save you some money that can be well spent elsewhere.

thanks for that. i know the 1st volta car i tried throttle per cylinder and it just made things worse, so yeah, i do see what u mean, and thanks for saying the good viable options, like i said, still experimenting. and also i do try to keep wheel size the same due to tire rotation, though i doubt that's really modeled well in automation. and thanks for the tip on turbo's
Company Id:1945270
Galt Motors, excelence since 1945
(PS, Galt automotive is still Galt motors, i use it interchangably)
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strop

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Post Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:44 pm

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

I have a couple of clarifiers in response to Dragawn's post, which does cover quite a few things I didn't mention and warrant discussion (good spot).

Dragawn wrote:Some additional pointers that Strop hasn't pointed out:

  • A high throttle response can give a nice boost to sportiness, although decreasing driveability, you don't necessarily need to go with more throttle bodies, ignition timing, cam profile, fuel mixture and compression influence it aswell.

    Absolutely, do check the difference between a single, twin or throttle per cylinder setup because it's simply not worth it if your engine doesn't have the prerequisite performance. It may give you a tiny boost in throttle responsiveness but may end up costing way more for no gain in actual output.
    .
  • Small MR(/RR) cars are a viable option, they're generally cheaper to make due to just...being smaller and more lightweight.

    But engineering and service costs of MR are relatively higher (though I can't actually tell you by how much). Anybody got a figure?
    .
  • FF is a good option aswell, although they have gotten some flak, they are more driveable, and have the power on the axle that carries the most weight = more traction, you can also make use of torsion beam on the rear axle then, saving money and weight whilst being practical if you so desire.

    This is an excellent compromise but if you want an engine that's putting out more than, say, 300hp per ton you should start to reconsider your options if you're not using some high quality tyres.
    .
  • In my opinion turbos aren't worth it as of now. They're great if you can't afford to make another engine family, but with the current lack of tech for them in Automation, they're laggy unresponsive beasts that will ruin your driveability, and make you choose between either performance or economy.

    nnnnnnnnnnnnnnot necessarily. I agree that turbos do cost you too much drivability and a bit of throttle response, and are ancient tech compared with what's coming up, but do have their place. If your turbo isn't excessively large, and you balance the compressor, turbine and A:R, and don't go too nuts with the boost (like not too much more than 1 bar), you can achieve some great performance (this is after all how I made my 50mpg hypercar for the 2020 challenge, as well as my 40mpg budget GTi for the 90s city eco challenge). Certainly it's possible to achieve a balance of power and eco that you will never attain with an NA with similar output. However you must use the right displacement and cylinders for the car you're planning to build, and you will lose some reliability. All in all, I feel that turbos potentially hit a sweet spot but you do have to know what you're doing and it's a fairly steep learning curve.
    .
  • If you can afford the engineering, VVL is a lifesaver. It enables you to both make an economical and powerful, responsive engine with only a small sacrifice in the form of the octane number rising.

    The main downside to this is that it will make your block a good 20-25% heavier, but if you care about MPG nearly as much as you care about max power, this is 100% the way to go.
    .
  • Later on Direct Injection may not be the answer, DI is expensive, opting for MPFI instead can save you some money that can be well spent elsewhere.

    Note however that DI becomes relatively cheaper compared to the entire cost of the car as the years advance, such that by 2016 it's actually fairly standard to use DI. The advantages it affords you in how much octane you need, overall power, economy etc. is massive. But only after 2012 or so.
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BobLoblaw

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Post Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:27 pm

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

Another approach you could make is to not try and make a cheap sporty car. I made two models in 1972 and 1975 respectively. My main focus was fuel economy and a cheap price. Despite that they rated surprisingly well in the sporty categories.
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TurboJ

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Post Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:15 pm

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

I will add a comment on using turbos on economy-sports builds.

If you really know how to tune a turbo system in this game, you will get very good results indeed.
Just an example is that with correct turbo sizing you can almost always make better
fuel economy with a turbo than you can without. Trust me, if you can't it's your
tuning approach, not the turbo, that's the problem.

On normal, non-exotic cars I use turbos not to make peak horsepower but to build a wide and smooth
power curve. Driveability will be good, fuel consumption will be good. Even with the old tech
that's now simulated, turbos still rock. You just have to weigh in the added cost and if it's worth it.
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SkylineFTW97

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Post Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: any tips for making cheap sporty cars?

I agree, however, I don't use them on any roadgoing models until midgrade premium unleaded (89 octane for my fellow americans, or 90.3 in-game using the AKI scale) is available. As much as I know the consumer doesn't give a crap, I still take pride in making low-emissions vehicles that can produce a healthy performance figure.
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