Page 1 of 4
What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:32 pmby Daffyflyer
There are a lot of misconceptions around torque and horsepower. If you're still a bit puzzled after Robbo and Stevo's explanation, I suggest a read of this.
http://hooniverse.com/2010/01/14/dont-b ... -it-means/
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:54 pmby euniqe
excellent writeup.
And lol, not surprised no one else has posted. No one i've ever met appears to be interested in the subject
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:05 amby Juno8
I laughed so hard that was crazy!
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:15 amby Juno8
best photo out of all of that was this one
ONE OF THE 50 TURBOS USED ON SPACEBALL ONE
I thats so hilarious hahaha I am still alughing at it what the hell were they thinking!
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:58 amby Killrob
Hey guys!
I did go on a little explanatory rant in the beta forum some time ago... and now that its clean-up time there, I'd like to post it here instead:
The only thing you feel while driving a car (affecting acceleration) is power at the wheels. Torque is convertible, power is not and can only be lost while finding it's way to the wheels. Thus, for measuring performance, torque is a useless, insanely overrated stat which almost everyone gets wrong - including car magazines and people who should know better. Hell, we got some of the most well car-educated people here on these forums and even most of them don't get it right, being brainwashed by the torque-nonsense.
My normal example for showing the point is the following example: which engine makes a car accelerate faster?
A: An engine that makes 800 Nm at 2000 RPM
B: An engine that makes 200 Nm at 8000 RPM
It is a triple trick question of course! First you say: hell, I'm not stupid, they are the same of course. But you are still not quite right if you say that...
How much capacity do you need to make 800 Nm of torque? Well, say 8L. How much for 200 Nm? In this analogy, probably 2L.
Which engine would weigh more? Probably the 8L engine. So which engine would make a car accelerate faster? The lighter one with the same performance...
or would it? No, definitely not in the hands of an unskilled or even average driver.
If you put your foot down while cruising with engine A, hell breaks loose. If you do the same with engine B, basically nothing happens.
It is a question of how accessible the engine's power is, which doesn't matter if you are Michael Schumacher, but does for the average, torque-brainwashed Joe.
In the car designer we will have a stat related to "ease of driving", and this whole thing above will affect that stat. Should the engine be held responsible for the lack of driver skill? No, at least I don't think so - which also explains why I don't really want to see torque matter in the engine designer scenarios. Should it matter once you design the car? Absolutely!
With a gearbox being an additional layer of abstraction and most people not understanding the underlying principles, I can see why people equate torque with power... although it does make as much sense as equating Mussolini with porridge.
Cheers guys!
/Killrob
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:48 amby Juno8
KillRob you are a god to everyone on this Forum...ALL HAIL KILLROB
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:55 amby felloslav
Killrob wrote:In the car designer we will have a stat related to "ease of driving", and this whole thing above will affect that stat.
So what would be, theoretically, the easiest car to drive? Low to average torque, preferably evenly distributed over the RPM-range?
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:18 amby Killrob
The easiest torque "curve" to drive is a perfectly flat line. Of course being able to put your foot down and make the wheels spin when you are cruising doesn't make the car easier to drive, so traction & power will play a role as well naturally. A reasonable responsiveness is important too.
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:57 amby darkjedi
basically the electric motor is the easiest to drive
. constant torque from 0-6000 rpm
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:05 amby Vuk
Killrob wrote:Hey guys!
I did go on a little explanatory rant in the beta forum some time ago... and now that its clean-up time there, I'd like to post it here instead:
The only thing you feel while driving a car (affecting acceleration) is power at the wheels. Torque is convertible, power is not and can only be lost while finding it's way to the wheels. Thus, for measuring performance, torque is a useless, insanely overrated stat which almost everyone gets wrong - including car magazines and people who should know better. Hell, we got some of the most well car-educated people here on these forums and even most of them don't get it right, being brainwashed by the torque-nonsense.
My normal example for showing the point is the following example: which engine makes a car accelerate faster?
A: An engine that makes 800 Nm at 2000 RPM
B: An engine that makes 200 Nm at 8000 RPM
It is a triple trick question of course! First you say: hell, I'm not stupid, they are the same of course. But you are still not quite right if you say that...
How much capacity do you need to make 800 Nm of torque? Well, say 8L. How much for 200 Nm? In this analogy, probably 2L.
Which engine would weigh more? Probably the 8L engine. So which engine would make a car accelerate faster? The lighter one with the same performance...
or would it? No, definitely not in the hands of an unskilled or even average driver.
If you put your foot down while cruising with engine A, hell breaks loose. If you do the same with engine B, basically nothing happens.
It is a question of how accessible the engine's power is, which doesn't matter if you are Michael Schumacher, but does for the average, torque-brainwashed Joe.
In the car designer we will have a stat related to "ease of driving", and this whole thing above will affect that stat. Should the engine be held responsible for the lack of driver skill? No, at least I don't think so - which also explains why I don't really want to see torque matter in the engine designer scenarios. Should it matter once you design the car? Absolutely!
With a gearbox being an additional layer of abstraction and most people not understanding the underlying principles, I can see why people equate torque with power... although it does make as much sense as equating Mussolini with porridge.
Cheers guys!
/Killrob
Hey Killrob, I'm sure you know a whole lot more about engines and the like than I do, but aren't you being a little hard on the 'average brainwashed joe'?
I mean, doesn't a car that's engine runs much faster and uses a gearbox to create torque operate less efficiently due to mechanical lose? Wouldn't it also use more fuel, be more expensive to manufacture, and have a lower MTBF?
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:11 amby Killrob
Hey Vuk!
Of course I'm being "too hard", that's the point of a rant, isn't it? While there is a good portion of truth to what I say, I intentionally do go a bit too far to make the point clearer.
The discussion was just about power and torque, not on other side effects. You are absolutely right in saying that, on average, lower revving engines have higher MTBF, better fuel economy, less friction, etc. - but that wasn't part of the kW/Nm discussion.
I think you probably are overestimating the effect "a car that's engine runs much faster and uses a gearbox to create torque operate less efficiently due to mechanical lose" though. Say you have a fourth gear ratio of 1:1 in a car with an engine that revs to 5k, and thus a 2:1 ratio in the same car with an engine swap to 10k RPM. Does that change wear and friction in the gearbox? Yes, but probably to such a small extent that it wouldn't even be measurable under normal circumstances.
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:58 amby Killrob
I've just uploaded a new video on the topic, now moving away from just talking about the engines and actually seeing how they perform.
3 different engines, all with 250kW of power in the same car.
http://youtu.be/vX8wlkSDwSYCheers!
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:51 pmby Ferrer
Very interesting video, informative and clear.
However, it is only telling you part of the story. I think that a more balanced explanation is the one in the 200Nm/800Nm post. And I wouldn't blame it all on "lack of skill".
The thing is, in the real world, pretty much nobody goes from 0 to 100km/h, or changes gears at red line. So quite possibly on daily basis the 6 litre engine would be much nicer to use than the 3 litre engines.
It all depends on the type of car, of course, but I wouldn't downplay the "ease of use" rating figure you plan on introduce, since it would be quite important for the pleasantness of the car.
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:15 pmby Killrob
Indeed the 6L engine would be much better for every day driving, but while it would be much easier to use, it would also have worse fuel economy because the throttle at cruising RPM would be much more closed.
In the game the ease of driving stat will take this into account and be very important, even for sports cars.
Re: What are Torque and Horsepower really?
Posted:
Thu May 01, 2014 5:46 amby V10I10ilove10cyl
I don't claim to know much on the subject but... Isn't torque pretty much how much force is generated to push A car in a given direction? I also know that the new formula one cars are a bastard to drive partially to lower down force but due to the extreme amounts of torque sent to the rear wheels causing wheel spin and less control over all due to the huge force pushing the car forwards.